I got this watch a few years ago when my wife's grandma died. It and a really nice 24j E. Howard...

I was told this watch was missing parts and too expensive to fix. The only marks are for the case. The case is marked: P&B NY 18 with a mark over it, and 17645

Its a Key Wind Key Set. The dial lifts off out the front.

The dial is gold colored with a peacock and flowers engraved in it.

Here are some pictures..

Face

Watch with the dial flipped up

Here is the case with the back open for access to the key wind location.

I don't see a cut for opening the inner cover (like on my key wind AWC). The movement might open out the front after the dial but it does not feel like it wants to and I don't want to force it. So its very limited info

Hey Jeff, Can't wait to see whats hiding in there.. Might be that the movement swings out like the dial does and I presume that the two levers there have something to do with it, maybe some type of spring loaded latching device. Just a thought as I have not seen a watch like this.
Can you post a picture or two of the Howard, I dont think they made 24 Jewel Howards, a typo ?.
Good luck with this one.

Ray

Jeff, I'm going to stick my neck out here, and suggest you've got an English Lever Fusee watch there.
From what I can see of the pendant, it's probably quite an early watch too, and similar in shape to those used on pair cased examples.

The movement is a 'swing out' type, and the large catch visible at the bottom needs to be pushed to unlock the movement from the case.
It should then swing open to reveal the 'guts'.

From first impressions, the dial feet are in place and securing the dial to it's plate, but there should also be another 3x feet protruding from the dial plate which go through the top plate of the movement.
These feet should then be pinned with brass taper pins to secure the dial plate and dial to the movement body.

As they're not there, it's the reason the dial and plate flips up leaving the movement behind.
There appear to be grey stains where the feet should be, so they've been messed with at some point.

On the front plate of the movement, you can see the click, but no gear wheel.
This click doesn't move in use and is locked, this holds the mainspring barrel arbour fixed once the preload on the mainspring has been set and the fusee chain kept under pre-load.
'Going barrel' movements don't have this click arrangement, only fusee's.

The motionwork is missing the transmission wheel, so only the minute hand will actually move as it's fixed to the cannon pinion via the setting square, there's nothing to transmit power from the cannon pinion to the hour wheel.

When you peer down the hole in the seconds dial, can you see a pinion sticking up which should carry the seconds hand?
If not, it's been broken off, and you'll be looking at repivoting that gear pinion to replace it.

I'm assuming it's an English Lever, purely based around my lack of knowledge on American watches, I don't know if any American companies ever made fusee's!

It'll be interesting to see the movement when you get it open.

Beautiful dial BTW!

Best regards

John

You were right one of the levers on the bottom pushed in and released the movement. Still no info on the bottom of the movement. I guess it would have to be dissembled more.

Yes I can feel the pinion where the second hand would attach.

Jeff, you need to slide the blued steel spring to the right so the pins are released, this will allow the dust cover to be lifted off.
You'll then be able to see the movement.

Looks like that could be a diamond endstone on the balance!
Good to hear the seconds pinion is intact, they often get snapped off!

John

Thanks John! I will give that a try tonight. I have never dealt with a watch like this before and I really want to be careful in those cases. I have mostly have had lever set RR watches and one other key wind key set and that one was not a lift out movement.

I will post more pictures after removing that dust cover.

Jeff, Whoever told you this was not worth fixing is totally wrong. With the sage observations of Mr. Woolsey, if I had this, I would not hesitate contacting our master Watchmaker, Mr Chris Abell who has a special place in his heart for these pieces and is fully capable of bringing it back to life. If it is "too expensive" as in "affordable" for you to fix, you could keep it knowing what it is, or sell or trade it with one of us for something more to your personal use and liking.

You can reach Chris at;

Abell7307@nctv.com

Good luck and godspeed

I was sending a RR watch to Chris for COA and mainspring and told him this morning I would send this one also for his opinion along with a link to this thread for him to see the pictures

Jeff, when Chris gets the watch, if he can let me know the diameters and tooth count of the missing motionwork wheel and pinion, plus the diameter and 'square' size of the ratchet wheel, I'll take a look through my stuff for suitable replacements.
I inherited boxes full of dismembered fusee movements and parts.

As Dave says, well worth doing, and especially so with family provenance!

John

I removed the dust cover and its a R. & G. Beesley, Liverpool, #17645

From looking at it, it does seem to have a diamond covered end cap.

I also think you are correct about it being a lever fusse watch. In the attached pictures after this one I think I see the fusse not that I am an expert

Side 1 of 4

Side 2

Side 3

Side 4

Jeff

John can probably give you a lot more info than I, but for starters in Loomes "Watchmakers & Clockmakers of the World 21st cen. ed." it lists a Richard & George Beesley in Liverpool 1825-1848.

Yours is a nice looking movement, I would agree with the others worth repairing. I can't tell from your photos but it appears the fuse chain may be disconnected from the mainspring barrel. This would be a common problem with the ratchet gear missing from under the dial. It is attached to the winding arbor & would catch on the little hook shaped lever under the dial, this ratchet wheel would help keep tension on the chain when the mainspring ran down.

As I said before, it is a nice looking movement, I really like these English movements & enjoy working on them too.

Tom

Its just so cool to me that something from 1840's can be fixed to run again... But then again I keep getting impressed that my 1884 KW/KS AWC runs so well and I carried it today at work...

Jeff, that's about as fine a Fusee English Lever watch as you'll ever find!

Big 'Liverpool Windows' jewels all the way to the Fusee cone - And made in Liverpool by a native!
They don't come a lot better than this!

Can't see the end of the chain, so look closely to see if there's a small hook still there.
If it's gone, it could be the reason the ratchet wheel is missing.
If the chain did break, there could also be some train wheel or pinion damage from the torque reaction when it 'let go', due to the pre-load on the mainspring - worse if it was fully wound!

If the hook is still present, it's possible someone fiddling with it got caught out by the preload when they slackened the ratchet wheel lockscrew and tried to let down the spring.

The ratchet wheels are just dropped onto the arbour and kept in place by the dial when not under load.
No pre load on the spring and no dial- they will drop off and become lost - ditto the missing motion work wheel which also just drop onto the axle.

Is it worth doing? Heck Yes, Every penny you will spend!

John

BTW, check the dial material, it appears to be silver from the colour, if so it's likely to be a solid sterling silver disc.
On a watch of this quality, it wouldn't be unusual to find the dial or at least the numerals to be solid Gold!
JW.

John

Very nice and very British indeed !

Keep it and have it repaired !

It is Liverpool from the 1850´s at its best and worth every collection. The substance is good, as far as we can see it's original in all parts, marked by the maker and you will enjoy when it's done.

BTW are there any marks inside the case where the movement swung out? Can you show us the mark from the middle of the back lid.

Regards Gerald

John, the face is gold... it just looks silver from not handling the reflect light well when I took the picture.

Gerald, I will try to see if I can get a good picture of the hallmark on the case.

Here are the marks from the case.

Quick question... I will be shipping the watch to Chris soon. Any idea what to put as the value on the shipping insurance? I know the other watch its going with is worth $500 but how much should be added for this one?

Thanks!

Jeff

That is hard to say, is that an 18K gold mark on the case? If so that would up the value a lot.

Tom