The 18K case on this PL Audemars Piguet, minus the crystal, is a mere 2.9 mm.s thick and 31 mm.s across. Ser no #35830(case+mv't) retailed by "Bittmann/ St.-Moritz is going to be pretty fine once it's cleaned up. It definitely holds the record for the most teeth I've ever seen on a Main wheel before
-Cort

I had a Black, Starr and Frost extra slim PL Audemars, but it had unrepairable balance wheel issues -- not even Audemars Piguet itself could fix it. So I sold it. I never would have sold it if I could have gotten it working.

The thinnest watch I have seen in person is similar to the one on page 609 of Shugurts Price guide.It makes the audemars look fat--being this thin I wonder if the case will bend if the wearer is not careful

I own two ultra flat Audemars
a) about 10 size 19j 7 adj #18914
b) 12 size 17j 7adj #25704B which is slightly thinner than the 10 size and similar to the second picture.

On the 12 size watch I had to have two wheels replaced. These tend to be delicate watches.The seller Hurricane520 claimed it had been serviced by the best watchmaker in Cincinnati.Even getting the parts at cost was over $200. My advice is to try winding it before buying if at all possible.

My watchmaker said the Audemars are a challenge to work on as the bridges etc are so thin that working on one part of the watch may result in other areas flexing.

Its hard to tell from the picture but there is a 20j Cartier hunter that is for sale at Jones and Horan that may be even thinner than the Audemar.

Bob

Dial side of 14k by Movado, the numerals are most likely gold and applied to dial, as are the hands in gold.

Name on dial Bailey, Banks & Biddle, both watch and case in fine to excellent condition, runs as it should.

3 initials on back in small circle ELF

with 14k back by Movado USA open, bezel off, it measures just about 3mm or less, about 10 size

FOR SALE TO ANY INTERESTED PARTY.

Daniel
I am very interested.
Bob Schussel

HOW's THAT FOR A FAST SALE...IT TOOK ABOUT 5 MINUTES OF BACK AND FORTH POSTINGS!

SOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Could be a Chapter 185 record!

THIS IS WHAT INTERNET HOROLOGY CHAPTER 185 IS ALL ABOUT...I'VE HAD THAT WATCH FOR A FEW YEARS AT MY CHAPTER 1 MEETINGS AND I NEVER HAD ANY BITES ON IT...IT WAS POSTED ON THIS SITE BECAUSE ANOTHER CHAPTER MEMBER POSTED AN ULTRA-SLIM MODEL WATCH BY A DIFFERENT MAKER...I THOUGHT I'D SHOW THE MOVADO...POOF...IT WAS SOLD THAT FAST!

Congratulations to both of you! A happy seller and a happy buyer... ... What more could one ask for?

Joe

Nice going Daniel and Bob! I like that the Movado had a sub-seconds hand. The Audemars does not.

This watch runs although it's in woeful need of cleaning. The only issue I see is on the dial side. The original crystal got munched early on and was replaced with an early plastic gas bomb.
The discoloration of the dial doesn't worry me a bit but the hands have sustained some corrosion.
I will try to improve the hands myself but they may need pro refinishing.

When I started this post yesterday I had had the watch for about two hours. I will start to get into it tomorrow. I am looking forward to learning the actual dimensions (diameter and thickness) of it to see how it compares. The extremely thin watch mentioned in the Shugart book (page 609) has an overall diameter of 50mm although the m'vt diameter is much less. I have seen one of these that was found at a yardsale by a member of Chapter #5 and it is awesome. It needed a staff though as I recall. It is hard for me to believe that the 1.5mm thickness given in the price guide description includes the hunter case also....?

Last, there is a story I heard that gave an explanation for the origen of these. During the
turbulent and unpredictable years prior to WWII, such a watch, I was told, could have been possible to hide on one's person (in the sole of a shoe was the example) in case one had to take flight,say, across a border for instance. Intriguing story but a myth perhaps.
-Cort

Cort
I don't know your experience working with ultra thin movements . If it is limited I would suggest that you be very careful.
My watchmaker (who was able to obtain parts through connections he had) ,had a frustrating time. There was a slight bend in the clutch lever that took a long time to diagnosis. Everything is so thin that fixing one thing can effect other things.

Bob

Cort:

I think what you have is called an "Opera Watch." I may have something like that among my watches...small movement, larger dial set into a thin case. I do know 6 size watches were set into 12 size cases with the larger dial.

Dan

Bob, Good advice. Placing regular diameter wheels with super fine pivots back in a watch with virtually no headroom IS a bit daunting. Thank goodness it isn't a full plate watch at a millimeter thick! I am aware of the consequenses of screwing up and will be ultra
careful.

One of the first watches I ever repaired (about 21 yrs. ago) was a Patek ww; trial by fire to say the least. I've serviced that watch twice since and can say, with relief, there are still no marks on it(by me).

Dan,
The diameter of the movement of this watch is just a bit smaller than the case so it wouldn't qualify for "opera" status. The "extremely" thin watch noted above (Shugart p.609) has a much larger dial than it's movement which is closer to the opera watch idea. The "opera" term may be a Waltham trademark (not sure) and, if so would be the only "opera watch". Certainly, a lot of Co's did this. One way to tell, without opening the case, if the movement is much small than the case would be to note that the sub seconds seems disproportionately close to the center of the watch.

I'll post some "after" pics when I'm done fixing the Audemars.
-Cort

Cort and Daniel
I think the notion of an Opera watch has more to do with the size and thickness of the watch. A "gentleman" would go to the opera etc wearing a dress( opera) watch. These watches typically were thinner than regular watches of the era had a case that one would typically expect for an 8 or 10 size watch.

One way to produce this thinner look was to use an undersized movement.While these watches were never cheap they cost significantly less the flat European watches.

Bob

Bob,
I was remembering your cautions when I cleaned up the watch yesterday. All went smoothly but, what fine and delicate piece of work! I am comfortable enough to work on it but it is hard to comprehend making it. The mainspring barrel is the diameter of a dime and about 2/3rds as thick. The movement,sans dial measured 1.5 mm, slight thinner than the rim of a quarter (1.6mm). I'll try to attach photos.

I still think the term "opera" was a trademark introduced by Waltham for their jewel series watches equipped with large cases and dials. They were attempting to emulate the fine European Gent's dress watch. That is what I think I know.
-Cort

I do not think one could call an extra slim Audemars "fat." Here is a picture of the one I formerly owned side by side an extra slim Cartier and a slim Hamilton 400, with two quarters piled on top of each other for scale.

I believe I have posted pictures of this Cartier before on this site, but here are better ones.

The initials are those of the original owner, A.E. Lefcourt, a NY real estate baron of the 1920s who built dozens of skyscrapers, such as the Lefcourt National Bank tower on Fifth Avenue across the street from the NY Public Library. He lost just about everything but this watch in the 1929 crash and died young in the early 1930s. His grandson sold the watch to me, which I treasure as much for the provenance as anything else.

And here is the movement.

That is a beauty Ethan. I especially like the monogram.

I will try again to load the news pics of the Audemars.-Cort

and...

Ethan
Thank you for showing your Audemar and Cartier. If I could only wear one watch it would be my 12 size ultra thin Audemar. I know that modern versions retail for $13K but has anyone ever seen ads for ones between 1910 and 1925.

I am also attaching 2 pictures of a Cartier Hunter from Jones and Horan auction. It gives you a great idea of what a tour de force these watches were.

Bob

It almost makes the Audemar look fat

Bob,
I don't care if your nickname is "Twiggy", don't call this Audemars Fat!
-Cort

Cort
As Al Einstien you to say "its all relative"

Bob

In that we all agree -Cort

Cort
After seeing the Cartier I decide to put my 2 quarter thick Audemar on a Slim Fast regimen.

Bob

Relatively speaking, it'd be interesting to know how these ultra slim watches actually compare. The super slim watch described in the price guide claims to be 1.5 mm thick and 55mm in diameter...and it's a hunter case! The photograph shows that the movement is substantially smaller (30-35mm?).

Working on the Audemar's was sufficiantly challenging. I was happy to work o a 12S waltham and a Gene Autry ww today.
-Cort