Which major watch company made the first 23 jewel watch?

What size was it?

What model was it?

The person who answers correctly will not get anything except the good feeling of helping educate your fellow members.

If no one has a picture of the watch I will post one.

I am guessing here..

Hampden? 18 size?

18s Hampden? I just bought an 18s 23J Hampden from Samie in a recent auction.

not just the first 23 jewel watch ... but the first 17 jewel too..... from what i have gathered....

Lindell, Don,

You guys have the company so now what is the size and model?

I knew this would be too easy!

Hampden: Size 16, Model 2, Grade 103, free sprung, S/N 802,101. Data fron the Hampden Watch Co. book by Hernick & Arnold.
However, we have a listing for an earlier S/N, 801,012, also a Model 2, Grade unrecorded.

What Ed said.



Charlie

Hampden special railway 18 size made in 1898
just a guess on the earilest 18 size

Jim,

I agree. As I have noted before, me research indicates that Hampden was the railroad watch of choice for an overwelming amount of railroadermen in the early years.

(This from Railroad reports of EACH specific watch worn by EACH and EVERY man on many lines)

This info also shows the timekeeping ability of the watches tested by the inspectors. And not only was Hampden the watch of choice but they kept good time too!

Jeff Hess

If you were going to invest some money in 23 jewel watches Hampen would be the one to go after..You can bet they will do nothing but go up in price..

Great thread Jim!

Anyone want to take a shot at the first American made 21J watch?

Fred

How about a Waltham Model 72... I know there were some earlier specials that were made by that experimental division of the American Watch Co. from New Hampshire...

The Waltham keywinds only went up to 20 jewels and that was when fitted with Fogg's patent vibrating hairspring stud.

The earliest 72 model American Grade were 18 jewels, but this was increased to 21 jewels in the run at 871101 to 871161 that was produced between January 1877 and March 1888.

The 17J queston is interesting. Waltham made higher jewel counts quite early and so did United States Watch Co. of Marion, Elgin, Rockford and probaly some others. However, specifically 17 jewels does not appear in the Waltham line until the 1883 model upgrades that seem to be in response to the Illinois 5th pinion models. Waltham made 1872 model Riverside watches that look like 17J but are really 16J.

The New York Watch Co., Hampden's predecessor may have actually made the first 17J in its Bond and King grades in 1874.

A couple of thoughts about Hampdens. I think that a large part of the non-collectability of Hampden was the almost complete lack of definitive knowedge available about them until Hernick & Arnond published the Hampden Watch Co. book. Even today we do not know production numbers by grade and jewel count and even accurate dating is difficult. My feeling is that as more data becomes available, more collectors will realize what they have overlooked and prices will rise as a result. Hampdens today are undervalued as compared with other watches of the same quality level.

BTW, for some strange reason, Hampden made the 16 size Model 2 as a 23 jewel watch earlier than they made the "dome" Model 1. The Model 1 was both thicker and larger in diameter than the later Hampden 16 size movements, so they are more difficult to case.

The first 17 jewel is more than likely E. Howard & Co. My # 133, (circa late 1858 early 1859)is a 17 jewel version as were a few other of the very early numbered Howards.
Harold

Harold,

That is one heck of a nice watch.. Can you post some pics of the dial and case..

Bruce

Bruce, here you go, this watch also has upright clear pallet jewels....

case back....

and the upright pallet jewels...

Now that is what I call a work of art! Superb example Harold, Thank you for sharing!!

Harold did a presentation at our chapter meeting; Chapter 112.

It's hard to say which are more amazing, his watches or his photos!

I'm hoping that we can persuade him to give his lecture at our Regional. If you EVER have a chance to hear him.... don't pass it up!

I'm not sure of when exactly, but I know there are at least two 23 Jewel Cornell Watches known. They were probably made in very limited production, for the Board of the Cornell Watch Company. In standard production, Cornell did make a 19J pocket watch.

Harold, you are right, of course. I totally forgot about the early divided plate Howards. Apparently Howard was unhappy with these watches and stopped the center jeweling early in the game.

The Walthams from the same period are 16J with 4 1/2 pairs and no center jewel in the back but with one in the pillar plate.

As to the 21J vibrator, I recently heard Jon mention it and I have heard that from Dick Z. also. However, I have not seen one of these and would want a really close look at the pillar plate jewel. It would not be that difficult to "make" one since the upper jewel is burnished in. Here is the 20th jewel on an early Waltham.

I have been told by old watchmakers that the "knock" on 17J KW watches (topplate center hole jeweled) was the pressure needed to place the minute hand on the square arbor. Those that have applied a KW minute hand will know that these usually have a fairly stiff friction fit. If enough pressure is applied to the center post, it is entirely possible to fracture the center hole jewel in the top plate. This is why the early KW models that were more than 15 jewels used cap jewels on the lever or escape wheel pivots and avoided jeweling the center wheel.

Tom

I have been hijacked! At least I am not on my way to a 3rd world country!

Some pics of the watch that I started the topic on.

And thanks to Ed I learned something.

I always thought that the Model 1 was made before the model 2.

Ed,
Did they make the model 2 in Springfield and the model 1 in Canton?

Serial No.1,092,159. Check out the barrel jewel and setting. That is the largest I have seen on American stuff.

Jim,
I believe that the Model 1 and 2 were all made in Canton. The free sprung Grade 103, with the 802,104 S/N is engraved Canton, Ohio on the plates.