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A Ball Dealer Cased Vanguard W.I.? "Click" to Login or Register 
IHC Life Member
Picture of David Abbe
posted
Deacon asked me about his Ball Cased 23J Waltham Vanguard c.a. 1929 with the early "Lossier" Hairspring marking. I replied that it was my understanding the Ball Certified dealers could sell Ball Cases with other movements . . .

 
Posts: 6492 | Location: Southern California in the USA | Registered: July 19, 2007
IHC Life Member
Picture of David Abbe
posted
and this super-pristine Vanguard W.I. is certainly worthy of a Ball case! . . .

 
Posts: 6492 | Location: Southern California in the USA | Registered: July 19, 2007
IHC Life Member
Picture of David Abbe
posted
How about a Ball Expert opinion!

 
Posts: 6492 | Location: Southern California in the USA | Registered: July 19, 2007
posted
The nice thing about specializing in Ball Hamilton 18sz watches before 1902 is that they were not found in Ball marked cases.

That said, I understand that Ball 16 sz come a bit later and were advertised as being sold in Ball marked cases. What would be the purpose in having extra cases? Silveroid types lasted forever and you wouldn't need to replace a 20 or 25 year GF case for quite a while.

Why would a jeweler have extra in stock and why would a waltham WI purchaser care about a ball model case? Weren't walthams sold in factory marked cases by 1929?

Personally, I am not as fanatic about cases as I am about correct dials and movement matchups.
If it doesn't have extra screw marks and is era appropriate, then I don't much care.

happy hunting,
 
Posts: 881 | Location: Arroyo Grande, California USA | Registered: February 22, 2004
IHC President
Life Member
Picture of Lindell V. Riddle
posted

Hi David,

When you said... "it was understanding the Ball Certified dealers could sell Ball Cases with other movements" ...you were correct, they had the cases and could use them as they saw fit. It is possible a customer wanted an indicator, the Waltham Vanguard was chosen (in the 1929 time-frame only Waltham and Elgin made Indicators, by that time Rockford had been gone nearly fifteen years) so it may have originally been cased as we see it.

One caveat, it could also have been placed in that case recently because the case-screw-marks on a Ball-Waltham movement would line up perfectly with the Waltham Vanguard movement. However, what appears to be an old-time yellowed plastic crystal tends to make me think we may be looking at an original combination. We tend to replace those with glass and anyone making changes on the watch would likely change the crystal.

By the way, for what it's worth, I collect Indicator Watches and a favorite in my collection is a Grade 655 Rockford Indicator number 858329 that appears to be original to the marked as "Ball Model" case that I bought it in. Being from the Cleveland area where I found it, my Rockford was very likely originally cased and timed at the Webb C. Ball jewelry store, home of "The Ball Watch Company" and in response to Bill's question if there was any place on the planet where Ball-Model cases were always in-stock Smile it would have been there.

We also know, by the same token, that Hamilton resellers had Hamilton-Marked cases available to them from the watch factory and in fact I have a South-Bend Factory Invoice showing South-Bend shipping four of their marked "South-Bend" cases to a retailer, so I should think it is quite reasonable that Ball Authorized Dealers would have likely had Ball-Model cases available for new and replacement use. We also know that through the decade of the 1920s most companies, including Waltham, sold un-cased movements to their retailers.

Occasionally a watch that looks unusual could be an original combination.

Those are my thoughts, let's hear other opinions!

Lindell

Wink


Rockford Indicator in an apparently original "Ball Model" case...


 
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
IHC Life Member
Picture of Richard M. Jones
posted
My first thought was that I had made a good buy on a really nice Waltham movement and would recase it in an appropriate Waltham case. However David made me rethink the matter because I can certainly see a man wanting a white gold filled stirrup bow case which to my knowledge would have been a Ball case and if a buyer purchased the Waltham from a jeweler who handled Ball watches it seems quite reasonable. Further the condition of the case is cosistent with the condition of the Waltham movement. I have had the 23j Vanguards before but this movement shows as though it was new. Ah if only it were solid white gold!


Deacon
 
Posts: 1004 | Location: Omaha, Nebraska in the USA | Registered: February 14, 2009
IHC Life Member
Picture of Richard M. Jones
posted
An additional thought is that if I knew who sold the Waltham (retailed that is) originally it might be possible to see if that seller was a Ball dealer. Any thoughts on that anyone< and Lin is your Rockford indicator for sale? I could trade you a good Hampden Champion for it and throw in $50!


Deacon
 
Posts: 1004 | Location: Omaha, Nebraska in the USA | Registered: February 14, 2009
Railway Historian
IHC Life Member
Site Moderator
Picture of Larry Buchan
posted
I have seen many examples of 16 Size Canadian Ball Watch Co. cases, with Illinois, Waltham, and other manufacturers movements, they also sold the stirrup bow cases,and I'm sure if a customer wanted his movement in one of the use cases they would be happy to oblige.

Larry
 
Posts: 3370 | Location: Okotoks Alberta Canada | Registered: November 22, 2002
posted
One of the problems with all the mismatches that we see is that the sheer number of switched dials , cases, hands and movements is then used to validate their correctness or originality!Cases wear out! dials get damaged! Back in the day no one cared about future collectors sensibilities. One used whatever was available to keep a watch in service.

Even worse, as collectors valued certain items more than others, many made a conscious effort to improve or upgrade their watch!

If our standard of acceptance is limited only to our imagination, than we have no standard at all!

When it comes to mismatches, the burden of provenance should fall to the claimant, not to the skeptic.

I really hate it when a mismatch is accepted as a "one of a kind" or prototype and then becomes rarer and more valuable than a correct or original version.

What is wrong with accepting the watch as it is? A great movement in a nice case!

happy hunting,
 
Posts: 881 | Location: Arroyo Grande, California USA | Registered: February 22, 2004
IHC Life Member
Picture of David Abbe
posted
Bill I totally agree on all of your points. The discussion I asked for here is; Would a Ball ceritifed dealer sell a Ball Case on a 23J Waltham Vanguard W.I.? That watch is a worthy and distinctive watch not available from Ball. Five years back I "showed" a 17J Bunn in a Ball Case engraved as a Numbered "Loaner" and asked the same question . . .

 
Posts: 6492 | Location: Southern California in the USA | Registered: July 19, 2007
IHC President
Life Member
Picture of Lindell V. Riddle
posted

My personal preference for a late-1920s Waltham Vanguard would of course always be a marked as Waltham case. Discerning (defined as "showing good judgement) or "serious" collectors are wise to collect watches that require no explanation or "story" to be connected with them. However in the context in which David's "What-if?" question was posed there is every reason to believe a dealer would have in all likelihood accommodated their buyer, after all, dealers in any field of commerce want to please the buyer! So, although not strictly "correct" it may actually be an "original" combination.

Taking it a bit further, I seem to recall that Ball of Canada even went so far as to advertise that they were selling Bunn Specials in the 1920s... and of course (as Larry Buchan already pointed out above in this topic) you know full-well those Illinois movements were cased and timed in Ball of Canada (BalCo) cases. A modern-day purist would not consider them "correct" and they would require an involved explanation, but if we come across such a watch it might possibly be an "original" combination.

In the situation of David's loaner, that would not be unlike the once-common practice of automobile dealers providing used cars as Service Department Loaners. Nobody cared about whether a competitive make was being loaned-out, the customer was just pleased to have a free ride!

Wink
 
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
IHC Life Member
Picture of Richard M. Jones
posted
I got to thinking about the Winnipeg Ball cases and remembered having a 16s Longines Express Mail (but not Monarch) in a Winnipeg Ball case. I do not recall if the case was original to the movement (other screw marks) but it was interesting and if I recall marked BALCO?


Deacon
 
Posts: 1004 | Location: Omaha, Nebraska in the USA | Registered: February 14, 2009
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