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Welcome Aboard IHC185™ Internet Horology Club 185 IHC185™ Discussion Site Main Page Horological Discussions, Questions and Answers Pocket Watch Discussions Identifying an E. Howard
Internet Horology Club 185 IHC185™ Discussion Site Main Page Horological Discussions, Questions and Answers Pocket Watch Discussions Identifying an E. HowardGo | New Topic | Find-Or-Search | Notify | Tools | Reply to Post | |
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I am new to collecting and to this forum as I inherited some pocket watches from my father earlier this year. I looked for the best place to post this and couldn't really find anywhere else, so please feel free to steer me in the right direction for next time. I am trying to get comfortable identifying watches using the 2009 Shugart guide and wanted to ask if my assessment of this beautiful E. Howard is correct. It looks like a 12S, Series 8, 17J, BRG,DR, Adj.3P, OF. One item that is confusing is that the serial numbers and production dates listed would indicate this serial number (1053986) was made during 1909-1911 but the listing for 12S models indicates 1908; does this just confirm the fact that the production dates are estimates? Also, it's in a Keystone case, as it should be but how would I determine if it is the original as well as the dial? Any feedback is welcome and appreciated. Thanks. Charley  | ||
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Here is the movement... Charley  | |||
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And the case... Charley  | |||
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| IHC President Life Member  |
Hello Charley, This a fascinating and complex hobby my friend, you're doing just fine. It took me several years to even begin figuring it out and it was not always easy to find people who were willing to help. Those few who did meant a lot to me, I vowed early-on to never lose my enthusiasm and to freely share whatever I might know with others. That is what the IHC was founded on and you will find here in IHC185 that each of us love the hobby and that uniquely the knowledge is politely shared with everyone, not just reserved for only for a few. The watch guide or "Complete Guide to Watches" is a great start, it gets better every year and what you found is a good beginning. With the "Later Howards" as some of us call them, some of their movement designs are named for the year in which they were introduced. This practice was originated by Waltham many years earlier. On page 263 of the watch guide you will see the 16-size "Model 1905" which is a three-quarter plate movement and the "1907" which is a bridge model, then moving on to page 266 one similar to your 12-size 1908 Model is shown and as you pointed out it too is a bridge model. Your example even has the 1908 patent date marked on the movement which helps. You are correct that your movement number is rightly estimated to be from several years later than that. Today this may seem odd, after all imagine buying a new car in 2009 and finding out later it is known as a "2007 Model" but if you think about it although they are called by the current "model year" car designs are introduced and then often built for anywhere from as little as 3 to as many as 10 or more years. I am often struck by the many parallels between the watch and the automobile industries, they have a great deal in common. By the way, that odd looking device on the ratchet (larger) wheel of your movement is called a "Geneva Stopworks" or just "stopworks" for short. Here is a "Find-Or-Search" for "stopworks" in IHC185 Forums. If you get into the linked topics, especially the older ones, be sure to scroll to the top of each one in order to get the proper context. Another interesting feature of your 12-size is the escape wheel and pallets being more exposed to view than in most watches, that allows you to observe the pallet rocking back and forth as the watch ticks off the seconds. Another point, the regulator being nearly all the way to "slow" is usually a sign the movement could benefit from service. A dry movement often begins picking up speed for a while and then may become unreliable. The case, dial and hands all look to be correctly matched and most likely original on this watch. Later Howards came factory cased, since the company was owned by the Keystone Watch Case company their movements were usually cased in Keystone or Crescent which is another one of their companies. The cases will almost invariably be marked with the "E. Howard Watch Company name. They made some very good watches, including the "Edward Howard" of which only about 300 were made. That watch is among the finest made anywhere at the time it was produced. Perhaps some of this might be helpful, never hold back on asking questions! I am sure I speak for many others who will have additional comments and like me look forward to seeing more of your father's watches, we are all pleased to have you with us. Lindell  | |||
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| IHC Life Member Moderator  |
Welcome Charley, That's a fine and full explanation Lindell provided for you, reading his posts is always an education. At the time I started in this hobby I asked a lot of questions. At that "other" watch place I was ridiculed and made to feel like a fool. Here at IHC185 Lindell and everyone has treated me in a respectful and friendly way and I immediately realized I was among friends who really love the hobby. Every question is answered fully and we all learn from every question and every answer. The members and the knowledge base has been very helpful to me and I now can begin to repay that by occasionally helping with some advice from what I have learned so far. From what I've seen you have some nice watches, we look forward to more of them. Don | |||
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IHC Life Member  |
Hello Charlie....Welcome to IHC185.... You have done everything the correct way and we are always ready to welcome newcomers.... Thank you for showing us your E.Howard, it is a very nice example and one that you should be very proud of....obviously your Dad's collection is very nice and we can hardly wait to see some more examples.... You will find everyone here at 185 to be very helpful and friendly in their reply to any question you may have in fact there are no 'dumb' questions here....if it is a concern to one, it's a concern to all, so get comfortable and ask away....I agree with Lindell and Don, you are among friends who really love the hobby of horology.... Regards, Jerry | |||
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Thanks Lindell, Don and Jerry! Not only is the information very helpful (and voluminous) but I must say how impressed I am with the warm reception I have received and how helpful everyone is. I really appreciate your feedback! I look forward to more dialog as I continue to “discover” my new watches. Charley | |||
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| IHC Life Member Site Moderator  |
Charley I would also like to welcome you, I have been at this only a few years & I still come up with a lot of questions. This site is the only one that made me fell comfortable asking the questions & even though I have not ever met any of the other members face to face I have come to care about most of them like family. I have also increased my knowledge of the world from meeting all of the members in other countries & now I can say I have friends in almost every part of the world & now you just down the road in Arizona. Tom | |||
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Thank you Tom. I'm already spending time here that I probably sould be spending elsewhere but this is more fun!  Charley | |||
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IHC Life Member  |
Welcome Charley. I have been collecting haphazardly for 50 years and IHC is the only thing I ever joined because I felt (and still do) like a novice. I find the IHC a great organization that even lets nutty Hampden collectors like me join in. Nice to have you. Deacon | |||
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Thanks for making me feel welcome Deacon! This is a great place to be. Charley | |||
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I want to welcome you too, Charley, to IHC185. I am relatively new to pocket watch collecting. I have met some incredibly knowledgeable and generous people here. I have absolutely never been given the impression my questions and/or comments were dumb or that I was being belittled because I wasn't a seasoned collector. Everyone has been a "newbie" at one time or other. I (and everyone here) look forward to hearing about and seeing your watches. We are all friends and admirers of horology. You will find that your $12.00 membership fee is the best investment you made and you will make a lot of new friends who share your passion. | |||
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Thanks Mary Ann. I've already gained benefits well beyond my membership fee. You can't say that with too many things these days! Charley | |||
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IHC Life Member |
Hi Charlie, Your very capable use of the Shugart Book to research this watch with the well placed questions and pictures of the subject made "helping" you a whole lot easier. If your dad's collection includes more of the likes of this 12s E Howard (I prize these for their beauty and precision), you better get set for a real adventure learning how Americans put time on the map with the finest watch-workmanship in the world. A well written and easy to read History of American Watchmakers book is available through our group which has the most informative "family tree" type historical description of USA Watch Making ever done and IHC185 is the only place you can find it! (Note the "Elgin Time" book shown on the left has been available at the Elgin Historical Society and is a fine social/historical biograph of a watchmaker [Elgin N W.Co.] and the town [Elgin, IL] it lived in)  | |||
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Thanks David. I have a few more E. Howards to check out and we'll see how they look. I also think I'll do the book deal on our forum to add to my reference material.  Charley | |||
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| IHC President Life Member |
Following up on David's comments, The two book offer of "AMERICAN WATCHMAKING SPECIAL INCLUDES HAMPDEN BOOK BONUS!" provide the best book ever written on the American watch producers and their history along with the Dueber and Hampden history. You can pay on PayPal all proceeds support IHC185 and we ship immediately. Lindell | |||
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