Being a bit of a railroad buff and the new and proud owner of a pair of pristine South Bend 227s, I've become interested in railroad watches (not a novel devotion, f'sure).

So -- he asks naiively -- what is the "Holy Grail" of railroad approved watches -- or is the answer a matter of personal taste and brand interest?

This watch was approved for railroad service and is very close to the best, if not the best. There are only two other competitors in my opinion.

These are the two possible competitors for the Waltham 1872 model American Grade.

They are the Grade 72 and Grade 91 Elgins. Click on either of them to make the image bigger.

Looking a bit later, I would suggest the Hamilton Ball 998E or the Hamilton 950b, & 950E, or Bunn Special 163A.

Ball Illinois is seen as a Holy Grail by some, as it is highly valued in the Market place vs comparable RR watches.

Most commonly associated with RR watch collecting are Hamilton 992, 992b, Illinois Bunn Specials, and Ball 999 & 999b. Waltham Vanguard and Elgin BW Raymonds rank up there as well.

Charlie

It probably depends on what your definition of a railroad watch is. RR requirements changed over time, but for me the “Holy Grail” would probably be one of the 57 model Appleton Tracy’s marked for the Pennsylvania Railroad on both the dial and case.

Really depends on what you mean by "Holy Grail." If you mean the best I'd suggest an early 950b Hamilton with gold train. If you mean rarest, you'd probably not go too far wrong looking at the really rare versions of Illinois/Hamilton Sangamo or Bunn Specials in 23 jewel, 60 hour, elinvar, special marked dial versions. There are also other really rare watches which satisfy this version of "grail." Look for "stars" in the "Complete Guide to Watches" and then check to see if they qualify as a RR watch per the definitions provided by the authors.

I'd have to say it would be the South Bend "Polaris", followed closely by the 295 and 329.

Frank "407" Kusumoto

Well, considering the fact that I was born in South Bend, I'm a Studebaker descendant and my grandfather -- a Studebaker employee -- rapaired South Bend watches, I'd say Frank is on the right track (a railroad pun -- yuk, yuk).

Humm. You wouldn't have any strong opinions about this, would you Craig?

High regards! Mark

There is no answer - otherwise we would not all be still searching and collecting.

Categories by which to judge a railroad watch include:
age
condition
rarity
railroad markings
other markings
historical or personal associations
quality of design, manufacture andfinish
performance.

The priority given to these or a combination of these is purely personal. Because there are so many combinations and because one's preferences can change with time and as one's knowledge grows, one never reaches the end!

If we were to approach the subject purely from a standpoint of advancing technology and timekeeping accuracy, the lowely 992B and its fancier cousin the 950B would be tops.

As a watchmaker, those two are consistently the most accurate watches that I work on.

From a standpoint of pure horological rarity and interest, I go with a 23J, Ball-Hamilton DeLong.

i think it would be remiss not to give honorable mention to the ball watch company watches , specially the brotherhoods .. i didnt see much on howards either wich i presonally like , not to mention thier contribution leading up to all these other companies , that copied or followed them .

Don,t forget the Keystone Howards the model series 11 railroad Chronometer is one of the most accurte timepieces i have ever owened..

couldnt agree with you more sammie , those are nothing short of superlative craftsmanship .

A quesion...

Refresh my memory...wasn't there an early
Elgin B. W. Raymond kwks gilt movement with the dial marked
Pennsylvania Railroad Company. If so should that be considered
in this discussion?

Bernard,

Yes, a number of 18's BW Raymond's were infact marked Pennsylvania Railroad Co. on the dial and came with numbered cases. These were purchased by the railroad itself, much like the earlier Appleton Tracy's I mentioned above.

In my opinion, these are very important RR watches, but not quite as significant as the Waltham which was earlier and is somewhat scarcer.

Thanks ,
for answering suncinctly my question Re: Early Elgin B.W Raymond KwKs watch with marked Pennsylvania Railroad company dial and case.

Is it fair to add to the "Holy Grail" discussion of American Production Watches of the 19th and first quarter of the 20th
century:

The Illinois 16 size Bunn Special 60 hour 21/23 model 15 equipped with the Elinvar hairspring and the solid Invar (non bimatellic)
balance wheel; which by some may consider it the most technologically
advanced production watch in America for its time?

bernie levine

by all of the replies to this thread , it pretty much looks like the opinion of " holy grail" can be judged by many aspects . rarity , beauty ,craftsmanship etc . lets go off on all tangents to further explain our choices . its quite obvious that one watch or single maker can really be chosen when you look at the examples they all produced .

Having made a very general and non-committal response a few days ago, now I will permit myself the luxury of expressing a very specific view.

I think the early 16s Waltham ORRS Ball watches are pretty good as railroad watches go - especially when housed in a contemporary Ball model silveroid case from an interesting location. In such a watch you have equal to the best in terms of time-keeping quality that the great riverside works of the American Waltham Watch Company on Crescent Street could produce, you have the full flowering of the Webb C ball genious for industrial design plus his technical innovations (not least the large diameter balance wheel) and you have railroad markings. The loaner case will be known to be specific to that type of movement and the location markings upon it will give a pretty good idea of the trains it rode. You will know that this was a railroad grade watch actually used on the railroads a century ago.

Most fortunately, there are enough of these watches still around for them to be affordable. They deserve the highest appreciation, in my opinion.

Being a bit of a history buff, I would say the the holy grail of railroad watches SHOULD be one of the two watches carried by the conductors of the trains that collided causing Webb Ball to recommend implementation of a time standard. Like as not, the watches would be in terrible condition... but oh my, what a piece of history they would be.

- Greg

great point , maybe one of us already has one without knowing ? be interested to know thier names ?? anyone ?

If you made a thorough inquiry (and offered a decent buck), you'd probably find dozens and dozens of watches that were used in that mishap!

Yes, but there were two that were signally involved, as I recall. The conductor and the motorman disagreed-- one was right, one was wrong, but the wrong one made the call.

Those two, if they survived, and were identifiable, would certainly be the holy grail--

but, like the Grail itself, they have no doubt disappeared, never to be seen again.

Jessica

PS This is not to say that if you offered a decent buck, scads of them wouldn't appear on Ebay any day.

By the number of "Titanic" watches that are claimed, it's obvious that the lifeboats were totally filled with watches, rather than survivors!

I know this subjective, but I have to go along with the Hamilton 950B. I think I will start saving my money and obtain one!

The truth is, in my opinion and everone has one is, as I tell my customers when they ask. If the watch meets r/r grade spec's as laid down by the railroads then one is no better than the other. It becomes a matter of choice. I myself like Illinois Bunn specials. Others think 992's but the truth is that the manufactures at the time all made outstanding time pieces for the time. If cleaned and ajusted properly can keep excellent time even today.

I guess the only spin I can add to this would be if you plan on carrying the watch, is it one that parts are still readily available? No matter how accurate and well adjusted they are, if you can't repair them due to use and wear (or, heaven forbid, accident), they're essentially artifacts for looking at and not necessarily using.

I love my 18s 23j Veritas, by the way, and carry it often, but I pull out my 950B regularily, as I know parts are still out there by the truck load, and they're as accurate as my atomic clock.

Regards! Mark

I can only say about RAIL ROAD watches, I have never seen one that I didnt want no matter what company made it! Jeff

What is the "holy Grail"of Railroad watches may not be the watch you like best. I love the Hamilton 950 and 950B but in truth as a Hampden collector I am most partial to the Hampden 16s New Railway and Special Railway or 104. For regular carry I like my John C Dueber 17j 5postion 18 size which was made for railroad use and is not easy to come by but has plenty of parts available and won't give you a stroke if you lose or damage it. Really it is all personal preference I think.