The price guide only list the Illinois Central in 17j. I am looking at at 21j 3/4 plate that looks nothing like the 16s Illinois two tone Centrals on the forum. The serial number is 4955882. It is just a running movement. No Dial or hands. Does anyone know anything about this Illinois Central or what the value would be in the current running condition?
The price guide is no help on this one.
Thanks

Hi Harry,
According to the Illinois encyclopedia, it states that your watch is a Gr. 809. This watch could have been either 21 or 23 jewels, most 21j models were adj to 3 pos., but could have been adj to 6 pos. ? You will find these grades marked often as Illinois Central or Sante Fe.
Hope this helps,
Bill

Thank you Bill,

That helps a lot. The only book I have is the Complete Price Guide to Watches by Tom Engle, Richard E. Gilbert, Richard M. Gilbert and Cooksey Shugart. I have the 2011 edition and the only 16s Illinois Central listed is the 17j. I'll look up Gr. 809 and Sante Fe and see what the price guide says about them.
Thanks you very much.
Harry

Harry, My records show there were a total of 2900 21 Jewel Model 809 movements made in 7 runs 1926-1929. Yours was made in the second run and the first for 1927 of 1,000 Pcs. which included Santa Fe Special (all 3 pos adjusted) and "Precise" models as well. Regardless of what is said in the Price Guide, you have a rare movement indeed. Of course condition is the final "Dictum".

If you have the 23 Jewel Open Face Grade 809 that is marked "809" on the movement, you have one of 10 made in 1913.

Note the Illlinois Central below has the sig and serial number on the bridge. Very hard to "Franken"! What is the engraving on the movement of your watch?

The engraving says "Illinois Central" "21 Jewels" "Adjusted 3 Positions" "Illinois Watch Co. Springfield" "4955882" "Double Roller". It is a three quarter plate Model 6 I guess as it is either a model 6 pendant set or a model 8 lever set and is missing the lever. I do not own the watch. I am think of buying it. It is a running movement for $92. It looks nothing like the bridge model you show a photo of. I would like to get it if I can determine if it is a good buy.

I just checked with the seller and it is pendant set. There is a lot I don't know about watches and here is another thing I did not know. I did not know they made 21 jewel size 16 pocket watches that were pendant set. Can a 21 jewel size 16 watch be RR grade or approved and pendant set? I thought they had to be lever set.

Here is another Illinois size 16 watch I can't find in the Price Guide. It is 17j and two toned. It is a "Supreme". Is there another book that has a more complete listing of pocket watches. If so I would love to have the name.

Harry add the pic so we can look-see.

A Time King named series included this s/n2039600 21J Getty Model 5 fully adjusted Time King. Grade 175, last s/n of first 200 Pc Run. 1360 total made as Grade 175 mostly Illinois signed Gettys, some Pennsylvania Specials from 2061131-2061490

I'm sorry David I forgot to put the picture up on the Supreme. Here you go. It appears that the Hamilton's are a lot easier to keep up with than the Illinois.

The Time King series does not look like 21 Jewel Central. The 21 Jewel Central has two winding gears and your Time King only has one.

Harry, I am a "softie" for Gettys. That is why I showed it to compare these limited special named runs.

Oh, I think I am starting to understand now. Although I collect Illinois I really do not know squat about them. If I can't find it in the price guide or on the IHC185 search I don't know anything about them.

But something you just said connected a few dots. So Illinois made limited runs and gave them special names. If I am right then there is no difference in two watches that look the same but have different names. They are just different runs and Illinois just put a name on that run for whatever reason.

I am not real familiar with Getty's. Could you explain just exactly what a Getty is? I think I know but I may be totally wrong. Is a Getty the model with 1 winding gear? If not then I don't know.

That was a very nice Time King by the way. You have some very nice watches and you always take great photos and always take the next step by sharing and taking the time to take photo's and I appreciate it very much.

Harry,
I would grab that movement for the 92.00, sounds like a good deal. Also, is the dial marked Illinois Central?

Harry the "Signature" of the Getty Movement is the single winding click wheel with the crescent shaped winding wheel click. In 1889, the first 3/4 Plate 16 size Movement Illinois produced as a "late comer" Model 1, 2, 3 shown at left below. It was a sad attempt to mimic Waltham’s Model 1888 unsupported cantilever Movement Plate but the plate screws are too close together. That plus a VERY fragile crown winding wheel made it less than successful as far as service was concerned. The one in the picture is a sort of scary exception since a 2009 full service and re-staff (plus replacing the broken crown wheel) I only adjust time when I have to change back and forth to DST. It is like a quartz movement. Really scary!
Back to the Getty. Mr. Fred I. Getty designed the famous "Getty in time for Illinois to put it on the Market in 1896 as a Model 4 (Hunting) and Model 5 (Open face). The dial is interchangeable between models and the Crown wheel/clutch as well as the winding wheel/clutch mechanisms are uniquely and flawlessly actuated by flat steel star springs and engage much the same as the gear shifting mechanism in the famous "Hydromatic" auto transmission. They certainly DID NOT BREAK! The well constructed Getty Train Plate only supported wheels 3,4 and escape with the center wheel supported by the Barrel Bridge making this a very robust and easy to service design. Sadly, I think that the single exposed winding wheel may have misled the general public who saw everybody else with 2 wheels, so Illinois fell prey to "2 exposed winding wheel" designs with Model 6 and up. These "new" designs worked ok but were no match to a Getty. (In my opinion)

I've had my Gettys apart in the past, but it's not clear to me just how that winding clutch comes apart. The small plate that holds it in has no screw, and it's a twin to the plate that covers the moon click spring. It seems to be a friction fit, but I didn't want to pry it out so I've always left them untouched.

Eric, just gently lever it out by "walking" the cap up with two small screwdrivers either side of the exposed clutch wheel. They do come out. Watch carefully for the tiny star spring under the wheel pair. Cleaning all of this makes sure the wind-set continues to function flawlessly.

Thank you David for the excellent explanation about the Getty. I do not own one yet but I am sure one is in my near future.

Hello Ray,

That dial is one of the reasons I have not gotten this 21 jewel movement yet. It has no dial and no hands. The best I can figure is this movement would start at $125 dealer price for a complete working watch. Of course I am guessing based on what other similar Illinois watches were going for. Of course since this movement can not be found in the price guide I really can not be sure. The price guide does list the Illinois Central 17j - 21j two tone movement dealer price at $225. This movement is not two toned.

If this movement had the correct dial and hands it would be a no brainier and I would have already purchased it. Plus this is not a RR Grade watch. It is adjusted to 3 positions and is pendant set.

I just bought the movement. I hope I did the right thing. It runs and keeps time according to the seller. I have bought a lot from this seller and he is honest and I trust him. Plus he offers a money back return policy.

He still has the dial and he through it in. It is a metal Illinois dial with the arrows pointing in. Neither he nor I know if this is the correct dial for the watch but I bet someone here may have the answer.

The production logs show that 4955882 used double sunk Glass/Enamel dials, but Metal; dials were often a dealer ordered option in that period. See if the Dial pins match up.

David the dial pictured above is the dial he took off the 21 jewel Illinois Central. He does not know if it is original dial but since the dial came off the movement then the pins line up. He took it off he said because the dial was so badly beat up. He was going to though it away but I told him I wanted it. The only thing I am suspicious of is the 10 position. It is out of line with the rest of the numbers. An irregular or a Swiss copy? The back does not show a name.

Harry, that is a legitimate "period correct", "High Visibility" Illlinois Factory dial. Not bad for the age either, the dial printing looks to be in good shape. It may brighten up with a HAND CLEANING in dish soap and warm water. NO ABRASIVES, rags or other chemicals just gentle hand rub.

International dial re-plates and re-finishs these quite micely although the product is sometimes a little "different" than the original.

You can reach them at;

olddials@gmail.com

Thank you David. I feel a lot better about spending the $85 dollars now for the dial and the running Illinois Central. Now if I may trouble you a little more. Can I put any Illinois hands on it or should I look for a specific type for this period. This is not a RR Grade watch but as you say it is a high visibility dial should I try to find larger hands for it to match the dial?

I saw the 1923 materials list and it showed a lot of hands. I assume the 1926 Illinois Central would be the same.

Can anyone tell me where I can find a grade list for Illinois watches. I can't find a grade list on IHC185. Also according to the Models of Movements page 3 it looks like this Model 808 is an open face, three quarter plate size 16, 11th model. The sixth model looks like it also except for the regulator. Mine has with whip same as the 11th model. Mine does not say anything about a motor barrel. How can you tell if it has a motor barrel as I don't know what a motor barrel is.

You got a good deal Harry, The correct dial should be one marked Illinois Central but as Dave points out, the metal dial is period correct. Now, to find the elusive correct porcelain dial

Hi Ray,
I have a porcelain "Illinois Central" dial but it is on my 17j "Illinois Central" two toned movement. Now I have to make a chose of which movement to put the one "Illinois Central" dial on while I keep my eyes open for another "Illinois Central" porcelain dial. I will see how the metal dial cleans up and have it redone if necessary.

Found it, I will contact you.

Nice. I'll check my email.

A nickel display case and a new set of hands compliment a followup to the Getty that I bought from Rob a couple weeks ago:

A new Cavanaugh mainspring and a pair of matching case screws, and it's running like Secretariat.

David, you were right - the plate covering the winding clutch came up like a manhole cover. It sits on a shouldered rim that controls the depth. Thanks for the tip on the star washer.

Very Nice Eric!