I have just acquired what I consider to be a rare Demi Hunter pocket watch. It's the first open faced demi-hunter I've ever seen and has the winding pendant at the 12 o,clock position.
It's an open faced Waltham 1892 Model 23 jewelled Vanguard in a Dubois 14K demi-hunter case.
The opening for the hunter crystal is larger than the ones normally seen on Demi-hunters and so does not need the normal double spade hour hand. The Roman numerals are in pale blue enamel which looks great against the rose gold cover.

The open face dial.

The movement.

Hmmmmm.... It looks to be a converted hunting case to me, I just see no use for a spring loaded cover over an open faced watch....

It is handsome though !!

regards,
bb

If there is no use for a spring loaded demi cover over an open faced watch, what is the use of a spring loaded demi cover over a hunter movement? In both cases I assume that the cover is to give extra protection.
At least when this watch is hung from a watch stand at night the dial would be far more readable than a demi hunter cased hunter, which would be hanging at the 3 o'clock position.

Beautiful movement and case presentation. Are the Roman Numerals on the case "fill" or screened overlay?

David,
The Roman numerals and the minute markers are all engraved and filled with pale blue glass enamel, and the inner circumference of the front case opening has a slim gold strenthening ring.
It has been suggested that Dubois, being a high quality gold case maker could have made this as a special request by the original owner.

The only defect that I can find on the watch is a tiny loss of enamel filling on the Roman numeral eight.

The maker's mark for the Dubois Watch Case Company.

I have a number of open-face watches with spring-loaded front bezels that open when the crown is depressed. That was a feature used at least on solid gold high-end gold cases housing lever-set movements, making it easier to access the setting lever. Because Peter's watch case has a groove for the setting lever, I expect that's why the front bezel is spring-loaded.

That said, a few month back I acquired a very nice lever-set, anti-magnetic Model 1872 American Watch Grade in a solid gold Waltham case. The front bezel was very hard to open because (I thought) there was no "lip" to pry it open. My jeweler concurred and, at my request laser-welded on the missing lip. On inspecting the watch after this repair, I pushed the crown down for no good reason. The spring-loaded front bezel popped open. Now I have to have my jeweler do a "lipectomy" to reverse "repair" I had him make.

Ethan,
This watch has the standard front bezel and crystal, plus the spring loaded demi-hunter front cover and crystal.
The finish on the front cover of this watch is far superior to that of an 18K English Dennison demi-hunter case.

The Dennison 18K demi-hunter front cover.

I misunderstood. Is the watch lever-set? If so, does it have a pry-open or screw-open bezel?

These are two lever set Waltham Model 1892 Vanguards. Both are hunter cased. The silver one is the standard hunter movement in a hunter case with the winding pendant at the normal 3 o'clock position. The gold one is a standard OPEN FACED movement in a demi hunter case with the winding pendant at the 12 o'clock position.
This is the first pendant demi-hunter cased watch that winds at the 12 o'clock position that I have ever seen.

The different winding positions

quote:

If there is no use for a spring loaded demi cover over an open faced watch, what is the use of a spring loaded demi cover over a hunter movement?

The use for a "demi-hunter" in a hunting cased watch is fairly self explanatory. These were made so one wouldn't have to open and close the front cover in order to tell time on the closed face hunting cases and still offer a semblance of protection.

However, to have one in a open faced watch makes no sense at all. In fact the case makers practiced the "KISS" principal in their craft. To have an open-faced watch in a demi-hunter configuration only compounds problems for case-makers as well as owners maintenance. It is simply not practical.

I have seen ads for the "demi-hunters" which were hunting cased watches with a cut-out glass portal for easy viewing without having to open & close the front cover to tell the time. But I don't recall any manufacturers ads for "demi-open face" watches......

Since it appears the watch has a "snap-on/off" bezel with glass front over the dial plus another glass cover over the outside lid, I believe wholeheartedly it is a converted hunting case. More than likely it was done at a second/third owners request in order to rid the watch of a prior owners crest or initials.

I stand by my earlier assessment and is IMHO on this "forum".

As I said, the watch is still a handsome one.

regards,
bb

Beautiful watch Peter, is there only one set of case screw marks?

Buster,
I realise of course that you will never have seen any advertisements for a 'demi-openface' watch because it is just a term I have used in an attempt to describe this case.
I have many demi-hunter watches, and they all contain hunter movements, and all wind at the 3 o'clock position.
I agree that this is a hunter case, as all cases with front covers are referred to as hunters. All demi-hunter cases are basically a hunter case with a cut out portal.
Out of interest I took the watch to a meeting of fellow enthusiasts this morning. With the benefit of having the watch 'in hand' they all examined the case and movement and after discussion they came to the conclusion that they had never seen such case with the winding pendant at the 12 winding position, and all thought the case was probably made by Dubois as a special request from a client.
They all expressed doubt when I suggested that the case may have been converted by a 2nd or 3rd owner possibly to remove a previous owners initials from the case cover, as this would make no sense for the following reasons:-
If the case had originally been a standard hunter case it would have housed a standard hunter movement that wound at the 3 o'clock position.
To have the case front engraved in the way it has been done, with the winder at the 12 o'clock position would mean that the two dial markings would be out of sync, and to make the movement match the new markings on the case the hunter movement would have to be changed to an open face movement. So why would anyone go to the expense of having the case cover cut, have a seating rim made and inserted for the new crystal, engrave and enamel the new Roman numerals and then go to even more expense to replace the original hunter movement and fit a new open face movement so that both dials matched up.
They all pointed out that if the intention was to remove some previous owners initials, then the case cover would have been engraved with the Roman numeral three at the 3 o'clock position which would have matched the original hunter movement dial and therefore retained the original movement. Furthermore they suggested an easier and cheaper option would have been to have simply had a gold cartouche made to fit over the original initials.
One of the group is a silver/goldsmith and after removing the movement he closely examined the case with a 10x loupe said he could find no signs of alteration to the case and no signs of extra case screw marks or signs that any had been polished out, and that in his opinion the movement appears to be original to the case.
They of course had the added advantage of handling and inspecting the watch from just a few inches.
Whilst the movement was out of the case I placed an 1892 hunter movement loosely in position to show the mismatch that would have occurred if the original movement had been retained.
This hunter movement clearly shows the different positioning of the case screws in relation to the original case screw marks.

The hunter movement clearly show the different positioning of the case screws in relation to the original open face case screw marks.

I'm not one of many words. All I have to say is if you have a lot of money to spend back 100 years ago when watch cases where still being made. You could have anything done you want. Convincing someone 100 years later that this was made this way is a whole different story. All that matters is you enjoy it.

Lin always say's stick to the norm. When collecting. My. Words now. That way you don't have to prove that it is special when you sell it.

My 2 cents is that someone went to a lot of trouble and money to get this case to look likes it does. Let it be 120 years ago when it was first purchased or 60 years ago.

There appears to be different # on the case parts if it matters.

7301 for the front cover that has the cut out in it.

221596 another part cover. This might be a clue.

What case number is on the body.

As for as no extra case screws. Not a hard challenge for a case man especial on Solid Gold. No brass to worry about showing thru. When making the extra screw marks go away.

Still a nice watch and case.

Eugene,
The 73013 serial number is on the front cover of the Dennison case, that I was showing as a comparison of their poor finish in relation to the better quality workmanship of the Dubois case. The 221596 is on the Dubois case. Two cases - different serial numbers.

Peter, a solid gold case with a "Demi" cover numerically engraved and filled for an open face 23J 1912 vintage Waltham model 1892 is "one of a kind". The presentation of the watch case and movement has to be original to the day it left the seller's place of business.

Someone with a lot of money REALLY wanted it to be made that way. It is still in extraordinary condition and thank you for showing it to us.

Could not agree more w/ David... You got yourself one-of-a-kind setup. Enjoy it

Thanks for your comments David. My sentiments exactly.
Without the original bill of sale there is little point in speculating as to who, when or why it was made.
It may be unique, I don't know. What I do know is that it is a joy to own and takes pride of place in my growing '1892' collection.

Peter, I think you own a fabulous '92.

It would be extremely hard to cut out that front cover and do an extremely precise and great looking engraved and enameled job, after the fact. The quality of it says to me anyway, that it was a factory job and the movement looks to be original to that case. The only fault I see is that the area of the dial exposed by the front cover seems to be off slightly to the left, but that could be due to the angle of the photo. Regardless it is a great piece and I have not seen one like it in 40 plus years. Geno

Congratulations Peter,

One of the things I find most interesting about collecting watches is seeing or finding something unique.
Your watch is an extraordinary find.

Happy Hunting - Hunter or Open Face is the golden case,

RR

Gino,
Sorry about that, the impression is created by my poor camera work.
This one I have tried to take from directly above and shows that the opening is in fact central.

Nice watch.

Peter,

Very nice and interesting watch; thanks for sharing this!

Peter,

You should sign up for membership on IHC - only $12 per yr. Money well spent...