John, it is definately in it's original case, here is a pic of a page from the original E. Howard records showing #3409 having been finished Feb.9 1863, Isz. with gold balance. Albert Howard was the sales agent. It then went to J. M. Harper the case-maker. Harold
Posts: 352 | Location: Scottsdale, Arizona USA | Registered: November 25, 2002
John, all the Isz. versions were finished on Feb. 9,1863 with the exception of #3801 & #3802, which were finished Sep. 18,1863. The first 40 (3401-3440)were the gold balance versions and also the very last one made, #3802. The others, #3441 to #3500 and #3801 were listed in the records as "Chro Bal Movt". So yours is one of 41 gold balance movements! Great watch. Harold
Posts: 352 | Location: Scottsdale, Arizona USA | Registered: November 25, 2002
Just noticed some info about John M. Harper, on the cover sheet of the SER.III factory records it lists Albert Howard as the Boston sales agent and also "John M. Harper 308 Chestnut St.Philadelphia; importer of English & Swiss watches, dealer of Am. watches" as the Philadelphia sales agent of E.H.&Co.....no mention of him being a case maker.... Harold
Posts: 352 | Location: Scottsdale, Arizona USA | Registered: November 25, 2002
I wish to add my kudos for my friend and research collaborator Harold Visser's excellent information. S# 3,409 is only the fourth originally cased I Size movement I have seen, and only one of about twelve surviving I Size movements of any description known. Howard made either 100 or 102 I Size movements, depending on whether S#'s 3,801 and 3,802 really were made in the I Size. (The factory records actually assign these two S#s to two different watches!)
The sale to which Tom Huber referred was of a K Size Howard watch, not an I Size. The I Size is a 10 size and was a ladies' watch, whereas the K was close to 14 size and was intended for gentlemen. Uncased examples of the I and K Sizes are about equally rare, although the K's have always commanded a higher price. However, the K Size watch to which Tom referred was the only originally cased K Size watch I have ever seen. The new owner allowed me to examine it in his home and it is not only extremely rare, but also in pristine mint condition, an unbeatable combination. I also happen to know, because I was directly involved, that this watch almost sold for $21K+ rather than $18K but for a computer glitch in the closing seconds of the ebay auction.
Based on personal experience, an originally cased I size like S# 3,409 should command a price of at least $10K today. Perhaps the most impressive I Size example I have seen is one in a multicolor enameled 18K hunting case by E. Tracy & Co. with an S# matching that of the movement. If my memory serves me correctly, it was S# 3,449 with compensated balance. It sold at Jones & Horan as part of the Dick Flaute collection about 15 years ago for $12,500. Its anyone's guess what that watch might fetch today.
Posts: 219 | Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania USA | Registered: May 10, 2003
Clint, Knowing how little I know of these watches, take this with a grain of salt, but I believe it would sell for a lot more! Get that baby cleaned up and you have a true GEM on your hands.
I know you are the expert, but I have seen so many unusual amounts paid for real collectors items, that I wouldn't be shocked at what one sells for today.
Anyway
John, What a find, Congratulations!
I would clean it up, and hold on to that one for sure.
Fantastic!
Sheila
Posts: 3094 | Location: La Plata, Maryland U.S.A. | Registered: May 22, 2004
Its hard to say what an item like this would bring. Both the market for these watches and the supply are sufficiently scarce that there's a lot of fluctuation in price, especially since they change hands so infrequently. I have sold two correctly cased I size Howards in my career (one of them twice!), and one of them, #3,406 had a unique escapement variation. I doubt that the Reed's barrel on #3,409 would "clean up" very much though, Sheila. Reed's barrels on early Howard watches are frequently discolored because oil tends to spread out over them, especially when they are overoiled, as they frequently were. The animal based oils were chemically unstable and also mixed with dirt and grit over time to become abrasive, corrosive slurries. Thus I am afraid that the gilding is gone from the barrel and some of the staining may well be irreversible. That said, the watch is still a wonderful piece of horological history and highly desirable.
Posts: 219 | Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania USA | Registered: May 10, 2003
Well this movement cleaned up better than I would have counted on. Mr. Cranster is to be congratulated. The scarring on the Reed's barrel remains but the discoloration fortunately was superficial. I am confused, however, by the color of the steelwork atop the Reed's barrel. It looks like the spring is either gilded and/or brass. If so, this is not factory work. But perhaps the gold color is just a trick of the light.
Posts: 219 | Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania USA | Registered: May 10, 2003
Clint, The steel work is steel that is a trick of the light that made it look brass or gold. If you have any other questions feel free to ask and I will do my best to answer.
Posts: 349 | Location: Western New York in the U.S.A. | Registered: December 22, 2002
