Is a watch considered a private label watch if the name is on just the dial and not the movement?
Thanks
Ed

Yes, There has been some comment on this before, and if I recall correctly, thie higher cost was to do the factory re-marked dial, and the lesser cost for marking the movement, but the marked dial may have been a distributor's or dealer's option too with a replacement swiss made dial. Lindell must certainly have more to add to this subject.
I must add that a "double-signed" watch such as the many "special" models made for the Canadian (RR) watch people is more valuable in any case. Even a beat up one like just came in here. (Bill K I agree with you, but we have all seen these dials. dca)

Not to me. A private label dial can be moved to any watch. The movement marking is what makes it a private label. It should also have a matching dial, but of course many have and will continue to argue that movements without matching dials are original.

Great watch. I love private label watches. After learning about them i started to collect them. I have a cady and olmstead elgin, a longines from E. St. Louis, Ill. Also a 0s longines and a 16s hamilton Lanbert bros.. All of these are double signed. What got me wondering was some of the private lables that the dial is signed but the movmnt is not signed at all. I have an a c roebuck posted in this forum that is a trenton w.c. but it is not signed either a c or trenton just the ser #. P. S. My favorite private label is Sanders bros (i have a 0s porcelain dial).

It makes no difference to me, if it has one or both, I just like a watch with names on them.
I get a kick out of looking them up.

Some, of course, are impossible, but I often find a name that turn out to be pretty interesting.

I have been searching my friend Mr. Lissauer for years now, and although I could never find a thing in the beginning, I now have a huge amount of information about him, his family and company.

I can even tell you that his daughter was married at the most famous (at the time) Delmonico's in New York, and the bride wore a costume of white silk and antique lace, with DIAMONDS and floral ornaments.

Daddy was a diamond dealer too!

He was involved in so many things, that it would be impossible to post them here.

He was HUGE in the Jewelry industry, was involved in everything Tammany!

He was one of the original

COMMITTEE OF SEVENTY!!!!

Who are they? you ask....

Tune in later and I will post it in a new message!

Gotcha!

hehehe

Below is Mr. Lissauers Pansy Trademark

On the movement too!

L&Co on case

David,
Sometimes you find more than you bargain for.
Check this one out. hehehehe


http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/05/17/1178995279082.html

I love Sheila's Pansy collection which deserves her the important respect for her being as rare (as a collector) among collectors as are the Pansy watches themselves that she loves so much as a collection and as a true history quest.
Enjoying Sheila's posts is part of what makes our IHC185 a most worthy advocacy.

As for the subject at hand, a pg 323 sidebar to a very interesting article on Bunn Specials in the June 2006 Bulletin (By Sunger-Ueberall) explains;
". . . the very Railroad watch inspection programs that helped create the demand for private label railroad standard watches sounded the death knell for them. . . . the watch inspectors could not be certain whether the [private labeled double signed] watches met the [railroad] requirements. Thus . . . they began to require that the [movements] be stamped with the manufacturer's name and grade name [or number]. This goes a long way towards explaining why we might find original combinations of normally marked railroad grade movements bearing private label dials."

I would tend to "side" with this explanation as I have early 1900's RR grade marked and signed movements fitted with Private label dials that are (also) the names of listed RR inspectors, and that makes sense.

Sheila-I'll bite;who are the "Committee of Seventy"?

I have over a dozen private labels with just the dial marked, and the movement being a high-grade Hamilton 936, or 940. All authenticated from the Hamilton records. So in my opinion a private label can be just on the dial. It does not have to be on both.

David and Larry,

The article you quote does explain why private label RR watches are so rare and were replaced by watches with private label dials.

The ultimate problem with private label dials is that they will fit any of the manufacturer's movements thus making it difficult to determine if they started life together. Even if they did, they are still two different species and I don't think they should be lumped under one category.

The danger that we all know is when someone deliberately splits a movement and dial and trys to create two "private label" items and of course there is always a rational for explaining why the one with the marked movement is fitted with some kind of "transitional" dial.

Not to say that both aren't desirable and collectible, just that they are different categories.

Still, even if we agree to disagree on this issue, just thinking about it and discussing the nuances make this hobby even more fun!

Happy hunting

Bill Kapp

I couldn't agree more.

This is what this hobby is all about. We all have opinions, but in the end, it turns out to be a real kick, when we can talk about what goes with what, and what we like in a watch.

Personally, I like that I can enjoy whatever I want. I'm not as educated about watches as most here, so I can enjoy listening to everyones thoughts and preferences, learn a lot, and still keep my preferences.
What more could we ask for.

I'm still trying to list all of my watches, so maybe one day I will know just how many private labels I actually have.

I do like a Private label, that's one thing for sure!

Shelia,
I am with you! I enjoy posting questions here because you can expect get both sides of the equation. Then, with that information I can make my decisions. No one is opinionated and everyone respects the others views.
Thanks to everyone for the your guidance!

I wonder if a watch with just a private label on the dial would be more appropriately refered to as a personalized watch. Today you can purchase a modern personalized watch with your name or special picture on the dial from many specialized companies who simply custom make the dial to your specifications. I think I saw ads for them where they were offering a personalized watch.

This would give us two catagories: A private label refering to the movement and perhaps the dial and a personalized watch with only a private dial.

So, how would you classify a Mickey Mouse Watch?

Ernie,
Micky Mouse and other watches like it are referred to as

Comic and Character Watches.

Collectors call them that, and most books will have them listed this way too, this way, they have their own distinction.

As far as changing the private label to personalized, it may be best to keep them the way collectors know them today, because it's already hard to know what a private label is, and if we, in this generation, add that to the current personalized models, we will only make it harder for future generations, like our childrens children, to figure out, just like us!!!

It's hard to think that some watches of today will be gems of "tomorrow" but it will happen.

We search all the time to match up dials, movements, and cases with names on them, we try to figure out what is, and what is not, a private label, all in all, I don't want my gr gr gr gr grandchild to go nuts like me. hehehehe

Of course, to be realistic, someone will name them something some day, so if that's what makes things easier to understand or remember, then go for it.

Seriously though,
I think WE will eventually have a huge impact on Watch Collectors of the future. We are creating books that include tons of previously unknown information, we have photos of watches that may have never been known or seen before, we have compiled serial number information that is even more complete than the watch Companies themselves didn't have, and we also have a new passion that no one has seen the likes of in the past, and that will continue for a very long long time.

To me, it's become something like

"The final frontier"

But it's also

"The BEGINNING of the final Frontier"

of Watch collecting and new information gathering.


And the list goes on, and on, and on, and on, and on.

Here you go, Illinois made a nice 4th bridge model P/L movement with NO makers signature on the movement, but the dial is for a Mr. A Winston of Herkimer N.Y.!

I think the watch companies of that period were very responsive to ANY request for their goods, even to the extent we see pictured here.

David,
A very nice watch, and Herkimer (the county seat)is just 6 miles up the road from me!

Ed, I like this 4 bridge style, and am not at all surprised that Illinois gave that expesive process up for the false bridge model that replaced this at about s/n 3,000,000.

After all the hoopla about private labels, I will restore this now and add a case and regulator whip. Knowing Illinois, the most unusal thing about this is NOTHING is marked on the movement except the Jewel Count and the serial number, that is decidedly NON-ILLINOIS-ish.

In the meantime, Winston is not listed as a RR watch inspector, so I expect that he was a Herkimer based watch shop around 1910 -1915 when this commercial grade 304 watch was made.

David,
I think I FINALLY found A.H. Winston!

I looked for days, nothing, then I searched using all states, and I found him in Virginia, in the 1880 Census

He was a Rail Road Clerk!!!!!

27 years old, and the only AH Winston listed that fits.

I will send you a copy of the record.

Ed Thank you for the information you sent me, and Sheila, thank you for your efforts too, this always helps add flavor to the watch.

Sheila, Scince we are talking about private label watches, Im curious about the Pansy elgin. I love elgins but ive not seen any pansies. How hard are they to find? Also I noticed that you are quite the one when it comes to names. Ive got a keywind that looks like an 18s elgin model 1 but the name on the movement is Jas. Koenig Pittsburgh Pa. I havent been able to find much on the watch or name

I sincerely hope that we just plain hear from Sheila pretty soon, as for her pansy watches, search pansy and you will find her past posts which help explain much of that story.

Going on to Private labels, Here is a neat one that is unmistakably an early Elgin, but Double signed with the pvt label name S C Newhall, Lynn Mass, and including some classy custom Cock work. Considering its condition, I think that it has spent a good deal of it's life "as collected". Nice early example (c.a. 1873)
It's on the bench for tomorrow's "fun"

Thanks for the info on the pansy post. I would like to get one for my wife, however i couldnt buy a gold case( a movement/dial would be nice. Sometimes gold filled is a stretch for me haha. Man that is a nice elgin. Im a elgin collector for the most part. I like the way the cutout is on the balance cock. I have a cady and olmstead double signed that i really enjoy but the oddest pl that i got was a lambert and brothers elgin. I noticed that the movement was not correct for the elgin dial. When i got the mvmnt it was a Hamilton 975 that someone made an elgin dial fit on it. I bought a 4 footed(hamilton) dial for it,but i kindof like the uniqueness of the two together. i have it in a "salesmans" display case to show it. Hey I like elgins and you cant beat a good hamilton movement.

David,
I finally found SC Newhall in MA and it's listed at 44 Market Mass. Jewelry & Watches.
That's all there is.

It's from the Essex Massachusetts Directory 1888-89.

Darren,
I'm having a hard time with Jas. Koenig I did find a few connected with PA, but not sure of any of them yet, so I will have to let you know. A date of your watch may help a little.

OH, and if you find a Pansy on ebay, you will have to fight for it, cause when it comes to them, I'm a tiger! hehehe

You don't see many of them, and I haven't seen one for a long time. They're also my passion.

Elgin's are my favorite too.

Sheila, the name may be Jos. not Jas. hard to tell. ill post pics asap mabe it will stir up a date.

What a great post,
Just to add to it this is the one and only Private Label I have. It,s a Longines made for J.M. Whitney on both the dial and the mvmt.
ca. 1903 from the factory. I have traced JM Whitney to Victoria BC on about 1911, He must have been a lawyer or something as all the references to him are esq. but still am trying to do more research on that.
Bill

J.M.Whitney movement

Bill,
This is one I found for JM Whitney

Canadian Genealogy Index, 1600s-1900s
about J. E. M. Whitney

Name: J. E. M. Whitney
Event: Living
Year: 1891
Province: Quebec
Place: Montreal
Comments: Importer.
Source: Lovell's Montreal Directory for 1891-92: Containing an Alphabetical Directory of the Citizens, a Street Directory, an Advertisers Classified Business Directory and a Miscellaneous Directory etc., John Lovell & Son, Montreal, 1891.
Volume/Page: 842
Note: The province and county are associated with the location of the record source and in some cases may not be the same as the place where the event occured.

I have only looked in two places, but will continue.

Darren,
Still looking.

Thanks Shiela,
I had found none in Woodstock Ontario, but Montreal, Que. is somewhat closer than Victoria BC. Where I found Whitney built a house, now I have to rethink what we have and keep searching. The watch according to Longines was sent to Wittnauer & Co, agents for Longines in Canada and the US, so I just thought from that point it was for a private customer, but it could well have been to a Jeweller of that name. I could come up with no jeweller in Woodstock Ontario, so just started searching from there. It all makes collecting PL so much more fun, especially when you can actually connect one. Thanks for the input.
Bill

koenig pic sorry so bright still playing with the picassa and a new camera. this will show the name mostly.

Darren.

I FOUND HIM!!!

Took forever, he was hiding.

He's Joseph Koenig, 42 yrs old in 1880, he's in the 1880 PA Census
and he's a WATCHMAKER

PS What's the serial number, need a date.

Hoooo Raaaaa!