Notice I didn't say 'switching'? I didn't want to start THAT fiasco again. I do have a question to pose that is one I've wondered about for a while. I own and carry an 18s 1907 BWR 19j Elgin that was recently worked on, runs perfectly, and is a proud substitution for a stolen watch that once belonged to my great-grandfather. (long and old story, and no reason to tell THAT one again). I use the watch daily for my work, and know it will be a companion for years to come. The watch is housed in, what I believe to be it's original gold filled case. When I got it, it showed just a little brassing on the bottom of the case, but other than that, it's pretty complete and solid. Last night I pulled it out to hang on it's hook, and noticed that I'm experiencing a ring of brassing around the crystal area, where the watch is in contact with the inside of my watch pocket.

The first point of owning this particular watch was to replace the one lost. This does it fine, 100% in appearance, though only 95% in actuality, as the one lost was 21j, but with only that distinction, it's a perfect replacement. The second important point is it's functionality. I use it for not only a daily time piece, but as a functioning tool for use in my work at the University. The second point is causing problems with the first....specifically the brassing it's now experiencing with usage.

Ok, where is all this going? With all the hulabaloo about case/movement switching, do you think it would be acceptable to recase my BWR in another good work case, and keep the original in storage with documentation that once I'm dead and gone and my kids get the watch, the movement is RECASED in it's original gold case, so the two are not separated, OR, should I just carry this and let the wear and tear of daily use go it's way. Retiring the watch is not an option here.

I know most of you would say the obvious answer would be to retire this one and just pick up another newer model for use, and I would agree. Problem is, there are a LOT of us out here that just have enough funds to shoot the wad for that one, good watch for our collection. This is mine. I currently can't AFFORD to purchase a substitute, (at least that's my theory, but I'm still teachable (grins))so I'm pondering these possibilities, those being recase, or do nothing.

What do you all think? It's not like it's going to disenegrate overnight, but it's not going to get any better either, so I'm going to have to make a decision pretty soon, so what do you think about the situation, as well as just the question in general?

Regards. Mark

NAWCC Member 157508
NAWCC-IHC Member 163

Hey Mark,
Here's what I think. Of course, I'm no expert by no means but I do have an opinion. In the case of watch SWITCHING, I'm not for doing that. I think watches should stay in their original case. PERIOD, THE END. I don't believe in switching a dial, switching a movement or recasing a watch. How you get it is how it should stay. If you are lucky enough to purchase the watch in pristine shape, great! Wear it, enjoy it, it's what the watch is meant for. If there's brassing poking through, so be it. Forget about that and focus on the beauty, the history,(in knowing the watch is 100 + years)the enjoyment you receive in wearing and telling time on the piece!

Stephanie O'Neil
NAWCC Member 143979

Mark and Stephanie,

I also believe in preserving everything in as original condition as possible. If you have a watch and everything on it is original, then keeping it in original condition is not a problem. Put it on a shelf and watch it.

However, a great part of the value of some timepieces is their place in family history. Mark obviously loves to wear this watch, and using it daily is important to him. He is not alone in that respect.

That brings us to a conflict. Wearing begets wear. Consistently used things eventually wear out. Some wear can be reversed in some instances, like new springs, bushings (in a clock), patching the veneer on a case, and I am sure you can think of several other examples.

Yet we want to preserve it for generations that follow.


I think Mark has come to a very reasonable and wise solution to the conflict. By setting the original case aside it is preserved as we want it to be so sons and grandsons can have their turn at caring for it.

Think of it like this. When I go out to do yard work or wash the car I put on my grubby clothes. When I go out to dinner or a wedding or other special occassion I put on my best suit.

Mark can always slip the original case on for those special occassions, and let the loaner case take the daily abuse.

In my opinion, nothing is lost in doing this, and the original case is preserved while having the pleasure of wearing the watch daily.

Almost like having your cake and eating it too.


What do you think!!??

Tom Seymour
NAWCC #41293
IHC #104
IHC Exec.V.P.

Thank you both for your thoughtful responses. I totally agree with Stephanie, as I, too, believe that the historical value of the timepiece should not be interferred with, but I'm trying to make a distinction here. As Tom said, this is a wonderful watch, but is a stand in for an original, but lost family heirloom. It can never totally replace it, but it's close enough to demonstrate what was to following generations in the Cross household. In the meantime, I'd like it to exist for as long as I can, as Stephanie herself pointed out in a related post elsewhere, I'm just keeper of the watch for the time being (paraphrased). I'm thinking that to keep the case from degrading further, I need to consider moving the movement to a carry case, but keep the original for future generations when it's re-married WITH the original movement.
I'm still interested in reading others thoughts, but really think this is the way I should to go. Any one else have a thought I should consider? Regards. Mark

NAWCC Member 157508
NAWCC-IHC Member 163

I think that Mark has found a reasonable solution to the preservation of the timepiece. Documentation for future folks to follow when an item is altered for functional reasons is an appropriate technique in museum preservation, so it is also for private preservation.

The key is to have the item catalogued in such a manner that folks will know what goes with what. I have a couple of watches that I have doen this same sort of thing with in my personal collection that are used on a daily basis. It will preseerve the fragile parts of the watch for future generations. If you don't do this, who will be interested in preserving a watch that has a brassed out case? You can bet that someone will scrap that one in the future, and switch it to another case.

After all, it is your watch now, and with proper preservation and documentation, it can be used daily and still be as good as it is now for future generations.

Mike Miller

If you are going to use it it will wear. Thats all there is to it. If I was concerned with wear on a gold filled case I would indeed case it in a nice silveroid case and contenue to use it. Keep the original case handy and marked and switch it back if need be.

Aaron

To me all watches are treasures, but I wonder how many 18s BWR 19j watches Elgin manufactured in 1907? A production run could have been one watch or several thousand. Is this the first model of a production run? Is it the last model of a production run? Is it the only existing 18S BWR 19J? Is it a movement where a change occured during a production run? Was this watch sold to a jeweler who cased it per his customer request? Or was it factory cased? Are there any records matching the case S/N and the movement S/N?
All these questions makes it difficult to decide should I even use this watch, or put it on the mantle where it can be admired? I would use it, the wear marks indicate use, and history. This would allow who ever receives the watch after you to admire how this mechnical marvel continues to work after a 100 years or more, and to remember the person(s) who used this watch daily.

I'm with Wayne its a part of history. He who is handed down to can say Mark wear this with pride. Besides give your 18s a break and use the 910 for awhile.Regards TED

Mark,
I would wear the watch, as is. You can also say, "that you were the one that carried the watch every day and that's why the case is worn".
I think we read in too much about what happens to a watch after we are gone. Who is to say if anyone would even care about an old worn case in a drawer, that belongs on a watch that is all ready in a better case?
That's my three cents.
Brian C.

pwpartsetc@pwatch.com

Hi Mark...was no sooner set to contribute to the thread when Brian stated my view exactly...leaving the 'piece in it's original case and thus adding to it's 'everyday' wear leaves Mark's historical 'Mark' on it and id's it as having served him as well...now leaving that philosophical perspective behind, I personally have no qualms about replacing any part of a watch that has come into my possession w/original replacements where, in my judgment, 'accidental' damage has occurred (ie chipped dial, etc) but not incidental damage (ie worn case)...Jim

Thanks all! I'm believing the concensus is to wear it, enjoy it, and should something need to be done later, worry about it then. I also heard from folks by email, and I think the best thought was 'the movement and case have lived together for this long, why not just let them to continue to live in harmony?' Humm. Interesting concept, but I think captures what everyone has said. Well, I cleaned the brassed area last night with jeweler polish that also has the antioxidation chemical to slow the return of any oxide, and I'll just wear it until that day comes. Oh, and Ted, I will indeed enjoy the 910 too. (grins) Once again, I really appreciate the input, and help in making the decision. High regards. Mark

NAWCC Member 157508
NAWCC-IHC Member 163

Hey guys & girls,excellent discussion! I wrestled with the same question a few years ago;my answer was my now much-beloved daily wear Hamilton 992B in the no.15 Stainless Steel case.Shiney too!!

All my elderly gents get taken out every few months on a rotating basis.They seem to enjoy going to work a lot more than I do!

Sam Williamson
NAWCC 154312
IHC Charter Member 14
Member Chapters 96 and 185

Yep, then there's that 'find a back up railroad watch in stainless steel case' ploy. Dang the low finances! Still, one to keep in mind. Never give up hope... Regards. Mark

NAWCC Member 157508
NAWCC-IHC Member 163

I think this is Kevin Blandford, one of our members. He and I have a rocky past, but from everyone else's report, that may have been just an odd glitch that occurred. From all reports, they do very good plating work, among other services. Check out the business directory here. He's offering a 10% discount to fellow members of the 185, according to his post. Regards. Mark

NAWCC Member 157508
NAWCC-IHC Member 163

Hi Mark!

The two points I tried (and judging by your post, failed!) to make in my post had nothing to do with Kevin’s work!

First was that the case shows more character, individuality, and implied history when unrestored.

Second was that, since beauty’s in the eyes of the beholder, a used object made to look “nearly new” may look glorious to one person and glitzy to another.

And I bet Kevin would probably agree!

This is a very interesting thread. I put my two cents in earlier, but I am not a watch guy. This is not a dilemma that clock collectors face. If I care to run a clock every day - no problem. When it is time for a cleaning and overhaul, then it gets done. Whatever wear there is, can be taken care of with normal maintenance. The case isn't being damaged or worn out in the process.

I have two family watches, one my dad's and one my grandfather's and have never condidered wearing either one. I do wear a wrist watch that I got as a high school graduation present in '63. It is a nice Wittnauer and thanks to Ralph Rehner is now running again when other repairmen had given it up for dead. I don't worry about wearing that every day. My grandfather wore his watch every day, but then he saw it as "his watch' whereas I see it as a family treasure. When my son get my watch will he not wear it for the same reasons I don't wear my dad's pocket watch??

I may have to rethink the "never wear" policy for the family watches. When does it stop being a timepiece and becomes a "family treasure" too good to wear - regularly?

Keep your ideas coming, I enjoy reading them , and unfortunately, you are making me think!!

Tom Seymour
NAWCC #41293
IHC #104
IHC Exec.V.P.

[This message was edited by Tom Seymour on September 10, 2003 at 23:38.]

Mark,
Great thread! This subject of "substitution" has certainly been hotly debated before with various opinions about what is correct and what is not.

The only time I have changed a case was when a movement was obviously in an incorrect and unoriginal case. The first KW Elgin I bought was in a screwback, stem wind case with no dust cover. In my ignorance I was very proud of that watch until somebody pointed out to me that the case was wrong.

Eventually I found a period appropriate KW case and recased the movement. Some purists might argue that I should leave the movement uncased but somehow I like the idea of complete watches.

Jack

You're absolutely correct, Stu. I did miss the point, and now that you've clarified, I totally understand and agree with your observation.

I guess in my specific situation, it's a bit different, as the BWR in question here is NOT the original heirloom. That one was stolen in 1988 from my Dad. The one I have is a dead ringer for it, with the exception it's a 19j instead of my original 21j. It's a substitute for the original. WIth that in mind, does that make a little slant on the case changout with the original case in reserve? Granted, I have now made a decision based on the VERY helpful discussion above, but using this set of data, how would YOU proceed? I do wear my Dad's Lipton oyster 15j wrist watch, that's essentially described as a Canadian Rolex (Rolex movement, but made for the Canadian market between the late 1930's and the end of WWII.) He wore it in the Navy through the war, and until he retired in 1986 and received an Accutron 218 for services rendered, it's the only watch I EVER remember him owning and using. I had a new band put on, and wear it now and again with no thought of it being something fragile and unusable BECAUSE it's actually, now, a real family heirloom. So, no, that's not a factor I have problems with, as it only ADDS to the enjoyment for me to wear and use a timepiece that once belonged to an ancestor (though he'd probably tan my hide if he heard me use that term, and he's turning 78 this year. ) Sorry so long winded in reply. Regards. Mark

***** Member 157508
*****-IHC Member 163

Hi Everyone,

Jack points out that the subject of "substitution" has been intensely debated regarding what’s correct and what isn’t.

My remarks in this thread refer to what I like (one of the few subjects I’m an expert on); not to what I regard as correct (one of the many subjects I know little – and, I admit, tend to care little – about!

substituting: finding a temporary home for a movement, while the original home is preserved and revisited for special occassions.

switching: re-casing to find a permanant new home for a movement.

Is there a significant difference here or is it just in my mind?

Tom Seymour
NAWCC #41293
IHC #104
IHC Exec.V.P.

A great thread that is finally displaying personal feeling. My recent cross-over from watches to clocks has shown that every clock has its own personality because of the wood. When nicely finished it is on display for all to admire. On the other hand a watch, especially wrist, is very personal to the wearer.What appeals on one persons wrist may not appeal on another. The purist will try to maintain a watch as original and clean as possible. In the case of Grandpa's watch he'd surely tell you to wear it from time to time if he was still around. "I worked hard and payed a lot of money for that thing" would be his words. He didn't have the luxury of a 1/2 dozen quartz watches laying around in the dresser drawer to chose from. Let us not forget that most of the old watches we have are from people who no longer are with use. In a way we walk in their shoes when we wear them, for we enjoy what they once did. When Tom Seymour puts on his High School graduation watch he slips back into the shoes of a young man in 1963. Enjoy them and take care of them, for they will outlast use all. Who will wear our watches and "Walk in our shoes" someday?

Ralph Rehner, "The Clock Pup" and Longines Watch Guy

Yep, no need for this to shift to personal feelings. The watch in question is a proxy. A substitute for a stolen heirloom. It has no personal or direct connection to me or my family. It only represents what once WAS owned by a past family member, but was stolen, and this new one serves as an example of what WAS. If I wear it, hide it away in a safe deposit box, bury it under a rock in the backyard, to the family it makes absolutely no difference, as it's a watch I got from California, looks just like the original, and therefore is only an example of what USED to be in our household two generations ago. It may or may not mean something to them in the future, as it may become 'Dad's watch, rather than the example I'm trying to achieve. Not that it matters much...I won't be around. (grins) As it is now, it's my pride and joy, and my daily carry work watch, that brings back good memories what I ONCE owned, so my connection to that particular 'ancestor' is represented.

So, with that separated from REAL heirlooms, that's what prompted my questions.

Hope that put things back on the rails. Regards. Mark

NAWCC Member 157508
NAWCC-IHC Member 163

Go with your initial thought, obtain a case [albeit a silveroid, stainless, or if you are careful a glass back display case], keep the case you wish to preserve with documentation and instructions on what went with what..

my .02

Great subject mark!!!

I'm glad you brought this up as it has really solicated a lot of input. I recently acquired a watch that I have been mulling over what to do with the case / movement combination. Although, my delima is basically the opposite scenario from the one above, it still concerns disrupting the case and movement so I thought it would be fitting to discuss it here and widen the subject matter slightly.

Where as Mark is questioning what to do with the original case and movement, I am trying to decide the best course of action to take on a watch that is already missing the original combination.

I have a 17J E. Howard Watch Co. (keystone) in a 16 size, 14K Solid Gold case. I believe the movement is a Series 9, 3/4 Plate Nickel, Adjusted with Checkerboard Damaskeening. At least this is what I have determined from my research. Hopefully, Mr. Harold or Dr. Clint will chime in here with the facts. I know they are both early Howard collectors but I am sure they can peg this one in about 2 seconds.

As soon as you examine the watch, one notes almost immediately that the case IS NOT original to the movement, the extra case screw marks and lever set slot on the case (the movement is stem set) are the give aways. However, the case is VERY clean and VERY heavy in gold. It is on of those case that the front cover kind of has a "thunk" to it when it pops up. I can press on the covers with NO spongy feel in them and the piece is very substantial to hold in my hand. I haven't weighed just the case, but overall, the piece weighs 4.6 ounces. Pretty beefy for a 16 size watch. The covers are tight, hinges firm, bow strong with moderate wear, just a nice case that in my opinion really complements the movement save for that darn lever slot!

Here is my question, do I leave the watch/case as is and enjoy a nice combination, or do I search for a more "proper" or "correct" case for the movement? Obviously the chance of finding the original case is virtually non-existant. Normally, I would tend to go with option #2 but the case really is so clean and nice that I am tempted to leave it as is. What say you? Fire away!!!

David Johnson aka "Doc"
NAWCC Member #155016
IHC Member #169
HisLove1Me! (just ask!)

[This message was edited by WatchUpDoc on September 13, 2003 at 0:11.]

I think in this instance I would just leave it as a nice recase. This is mostly because, even in a Howard-marked case it will always be a recase. Keystone-Howard watches were always sold cased-at-the-factory. Would anyone ever know that it is recased? Ever notice how many original wood boxes turn up on eBay from Howards, many with the certificate still in them listing the movement and case numbers. The documentation that yours was in a different case may be out there somewhere. Someday someone may even turn up a factory ledger of movement and case assignments.

Also, as research continues on Keystone-Howards, it may become evident that the "original"-type case you may find for it may never have been used on that model or at the time your movement was made. I have become very cautious when it comes to factory-cased watches.

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