Solid Gold Hunter Case?

March 27, 2007, 20:41

Foster Miller

I have only been collecting for about 1.5 years and have come across a number of cases marked "Warranted to wear Permanently"

Are they always solid gold- or could they be gold plated or gold filled?

I greatly appreciate your help!

March 27, 2007, 20:59

Samie L. Smith

they will be gold filled you see this marking on a lot of the Hamilton 12 size and also on a lot of the keystone Howard cases.

March 27, 2007, 21:10

Lindell V. Riddle

Foster,

Welcome to our Chapter 185 Discussion Site!

My good friend Samie answered your question correctly, what you have is a "top-of-the-line" gold-filled case. The term "Gold-Filled" describes a layer of gold applied to either side of a brass core under heat and pressure. That "Permanent" marking always in every instance means the gold overlay on this case was guaranteed to not wear through to the brass underneath. Today "Lifetime Warranty" is what it would be called.

Here is some interesting research on the subject...

"Find-Or-Search" for "Gold-Filled" in our Chapter 185 Pocket Watches Forum

Case content is shown on pages 34-39 of the "Complete Guide to Watches" 2007 Edition.

PAY CHAPTER 185 DUES, GET 2007 WATCH GUIDE!

Again welcome aboard, hope you enjoy the ride.

Lindell

March 28, 2007, 08:43

Foster Miller

Thanks for your help. The case I am looking at is a 16 size Fahys- full hunter. The Fahys marking appears in Suggarts as gold filled, however other cases marked with the guarentee to wear permantley show up in Suggarts as solid gold.

I can not find any reference to a solid gold Fahys hunter case- being that it is a 16 size leads me to beleive it is probably gold-filled.

Thanks again

March 28, 2007, 10:34

Lindell V. Riddle

Let's be very clear on this Foster...

No case marked as "20-Years" or "25-Years" or for that matter "Permanent" or any such reference to time-frames will ever be a solid-gold case. As I said above... "That "Permanent" marking always in every instance means the gold overlay on this case was guaranteed to not wear through to the brass underneath" ...and that is every instance.

What you may be confusing is the words "Warranted" which appears along with "U. S. Assay" and one more point. This becomes confusing because many early gold-filled cases will be marked with the maker's name and "14K" which at the time was understood in the industry but today confuses many who are new to the hobby.

Believe me, no case is shown in Shugart's watch guide described as "Permanent" and as "solid-gold" in the listing. Unfortunately there are not specific references to "Permanent" page 36 as there should be and that needs to be clarified. However, you will see listed on page 37 a GOLD-FILLED case with "PERMANENT" marking.

In an earlier topic we stated: "Cases marked 'Permanent' were the best gold-filled cases. It essentially meant they warranted the gold outer layer would not wear through to the brass core. Perhaps 'Lifetime' would have been a descriptive choice of words for the fact they warranted the buyer would never have to pay for another case due to wear."

Again I stress following the links to previous discussions of this fascinating subject.

This particular topic is directly on-point as we discuss a case marked exactly as yours is... "Fahys Watch Case" by Wayne C. Anderson from July 20, 2003

Here is Wayne Anderson's "Fahys Permanent" marking...

March 28, 2007, 10:35

Lindell V. Riddle

And here is a South-Bend "Permanent" gold-filled case...

March 28, 2007, 11:58

Donald B. Dahlberg

To add to what Lindell said, because these terms were confusing and could not be proven (as is in a 25 year case), the government eventually forbid such labels and set down how gold products must be labeled. I do not remember when these laws were passed.

Don

March 28, 2007, 12:01

Foster Miller

The Fahys case pic you posted is exactly like the hunter I have been looking at.

Thank you so much for your help. Hopefully I will be able to make the purchase tonight.

March 28, 2007, 12:25

Cary Hurt

Don,

I'm pretty sure that 1924 is the year the FTC regulations changed to require the karat-value of gold be displayed, and forbid the use of terms such as "permanent", or "10, 20 and 25 years". It also ended the use of gold-filled without a karat value and such things as "reinforced gold". My favorite misleading term is in an early Benrus wristwatch, labeled as "Solid gold supported by metal".

For what it's worth,

Cary

March 28, 2007, 17:34

Foster Miller

By my research- the watch is from 1909-1910, so it looks like the case is appropriate for the movement. Thanks again to all!!