I picked up an Illinois 18s 17j model 2 LS hunter in the serial number range 1,240,701- 1,240,800 which in the book I have notes it as a 17j model 2 with the notations 65-S Dec 94, Wilson Bro. This one is a private label, dial and movement matching marked and is a tu-tone with gilt screws and trimming.

What is the difference between a grade 65, 65-S or 65-E etc.

For Mr Brown what can you find on J. Zang in Alliance Ohio?

Julius Albert Zang, born 3/18/1845 in Baden Baden Germany, emigrated to US in 1852. He married Ada Mathilda Purdy in Alliance Ohio. His two children were Albert Gurdon Zang and Frederick Julius Zang. He was a fourth generation watchmaker who set up shop in Alliance Ohio. At some point his store became "And Sons"

He died May 22, 1925 in Alliance.

Tom

Claude,

I’m not an Illinois expert but it looks like the 65-S classification may mean the watch markings changed from “Patent Pinion” on a 65 to “Safety Pinion” hence the additional S in the Meggers and Ehrhardt book. If you notice on page 101 they actually don’t list any movements as 65-S.

The 65-E is easier to distinguish as it is may be marked “Extra” and is adjusted to four positions. The 65 Extra is a higher grade with ruby jewels although the watches aren’t all marked “Extra” and they’re not marked “Ruby Jewels” but advertisements state 65-E are equipped with them.

RR

I found a movement marked 65-S in one of the early price guides and it is marked as adjusted for iso/heat/cold and positions since the E version was adj to 4p I would imagine the normal position adjustement would have been to 3 positions.

This one is a hunter but was still marked RR so I guess it was early enough where some railroads were still taking hunters and private labels for service.

I don't know how many of the hunters they produced or tu-tone movement (hunter or open face) that were produced but I thought I would not let it pass by.

Claude,
You have pretty much covered it all, but in the Blue Book it states previous to 1900 were considered RR grade, and as much as the "E" series it states 4 positions only. The "s" states T. I. & Positions.
Bill

With a Grand Total of 1710 made from 1890-95 in 25 runs, this grade 65S Two-Tone embossed gold movement with Temp, Iso, and 3 position adjustments, equipped with the very fancy Chalmers Regulator was a top grade watch.

Naming within this grade included several runs of RR King, Wilson Brothers and the even more rare "Southern Special".

It was mis-identified as another brand, cased in a nice looking Deuber Special (14K 25yr) that I could not see any brass on the lids and lids were opening to 90 or less, definitely not all flopped over at a price of $230. The movement was fully intact but is not running so some service and COA will be in order but the movement was clean with no corrosion with no missing items that I could see. The movement was tu-tone with gilt screws and engraving so it was a nice eye candy looking watch that had a near perfect PL dial which matched the movement PL so it was not a franken-watch.

I don't have any Illinois 18s watches so I thought it would a good one to pick up to go with my three 16s Bunn 17j or 21j Specials that I have.

Dave I feel a lot better with the price since only 1710 were produced I will make sure to post pictures when I can.

Bill in the time frame it was produced 1890-1895 it would have been in the same category as the later Elgin grade 149 21j or the 144/143 17j grades, lever set, 17j (21j for the 149) adjusted to 3p I am puzzled why it would not have been considered RR approved since the Elgin 149/144-143 (GMW) were RR approved and they came out a few years later. In Roy E's guide book #2 it would have been the best 17j movement after the Bunn 17j (gilt/nickel) and the 17j Bunns only had gold jewel settings and gold balance weights where the 65-S did not appear to have them. Pricing listed in 1896 was listed at $32-nickel/$28-gilt for the Bunns and $24 for the grade 65.

Here are the pictures of the Illinois 65-S, please feel free to comment