Hello. I am trying to find some help identifying a pocket watch that was donated to our museum. I was able to open it and get the movement to swing out of the back of the case. I expected I might find a maker's name. As you can see by the attached picture, there is no name. I have another picture that I will attach to my reply to this message that shows the only markings I have been able to find. They are inside the back of the case. I can send a higher resolution copy of this picture to anyone who might be able to help. Since it was donated, we need to provide the donor with a receipt that they can use for a deduction from next year's tax. We need to know anything we can find out about it for our records. Any help would be greatly appreciated. We can be contacted privately at civilwarlife@yahoo.com or you can visit our web page http://civilwar-life.com

Thanks

Terry Thomann, Director

Hi again, Here is the second image of the watch that shows the markings in the case.

Here is an overall view of the watch. As you can see, the second hand is missing. I do not know if the watch works, but I tend to doubt it. We would like to find an original key that fits this watch.

Happy Memorial Day to all

Terry Thomann

You need to give us a bit more help. We need to see the back of the movement.

In your first photograph, there is curved blue spring that travels half way around the dust cover. Slide this spring clockwise and it will come off. This will allow you to remove the dust cover and expose the back of the movement. Give us a good clear photo of the back of the movement and we might have a chance.


Don

Thank you Don for your quick reply. I have already learned something. I didn't know there was a dust cover. I will remove it tomorrow when I am at the museum. I'll take a picture of the back of the movement and post it tomorrow evening. Please forgive me, but I am a total novice when it comes to watch terminology. What do you mean by the bow of the case?

Sorry about that. Your third photograph appeared on my computer as I was typing my response. When I saw the picture, I remove my last request. The bow is the part of the watch case that the watch chain attaches to. It is in your last photo.

Don

Terry, please stop NOW. This piece needs to opened by a watchmaker familiar with all aspects of antique mechanical timepieces. It is very easy to ruin an important item of this nature. It may take a while, but I'll guarantee you'll be glad that you did. Many of these old timepieces are not easily salvageable if important parts are mangled or damaged. No going to the watch store to replace the part. The watch looks like it has been around a few years, so waiting a little longer won't harm her.

I'm all ears. I have no experience with pocket watches, but lots of experience with antique firearms so with a little help, I believe I can remove the dust cover. If you would be kind enough to call me at the museum like you did today I'd like to try. Thanks to all for the help so far.

Terry Thomann

I'm learning fast. I was able to remove the dust cover without any problem, or damage. I am fairly proficient with working on guns. Watches are just smaller. Attached is a photo of the movement. If it is too small to read, the maker seems to be S. I. Tobias & Co., Liverpool. It also says 4 Holes JD. Anyone know what that means? There is also a serial number 7081. It matches the number on the silver case. I guess that means they have always been together. I would like to know anything I can about the maker, and when the watch was made. Are there any web sites related to this maker?

I would like to have an idea as to value. The second hand is missing, and I don't think the watch is in working condition.

You all have all been so much help. What a great group. Thanks to all who have replied with all this information.

Me again. I have attached a picture of the outer casing of this watch. I have never seen one like this, but that should not suprise anyone as I know very little about watches. My question is why did they have a seperate outer case? Is this at all unusual?

Also, there is a small lever on the watch. I assume this is to set the time. Is that correct?

Thanks again.

We call the case a Pair Case, as in two.

The watch dates to me about the 1830s or 40s. You have to put +/- a decade or more in that number. The case could be 1850 by the shape of the bow stem.

You, of course, know now that it is English. Britten has records of a Morris Tobias and Co of Liverpool and London 1808-25. S.I.Tobias may have been the next generation. Perhaps someone has a copy of Loomes that might have something on S.I. Tobias.

What are missing are hallmarks on the case. A silver case made in England would be hallmarked. Your pictures of the inside of the case are not clear, so I cannot see any. There might be some in the middle of the case, but I cannot see. Note, they would also be under the paper in the outer case. There should be a silver hallmark (lion), a city of assay hallmark and a date hallmark (single letter, case and font specific). Finally there is usually a case maker hallmark (two or more letters). You can learn about English hallmarks at http://www.925-1000.com/british_marks.html and http://www.horologia.co.uk/hallmarks1.html

Check out the 4th and 6th pictures on this page. http://nawcc-info.org/Treiman/TreimanEuro.htm they are Tobias watches.

There is a later S.I.Tobias watch from a later date at http://www.jones-horan.com/0504/0504fa.htm
See #157.

Also see #127 at http://www.jones-horan.com/0504/0504f.htm The movement is very similar, but the balance is later.

Note that these last two watches are more special examples than yours. For example see the multicolor dial of #127.

Yet another with a tricolor dial at http://www.antiquejewelrymall.com/tobkeypocwat.html

I hope this is of some help.
Don

Bulletin # 281, December 1992. Pages 686-7. It seems that S. I. Tobias was a New York watch dealer importing watches from a man named Stuart. Stuart worked in Liverpool. Stuart was faking M. I . Tobias watches and sending them to S. I. Tobias. Stuart also stated that S. I. ordered some watches marked S. I. Tobias. Confusing isn't it. Stuart also said he thought that S. I. was part of the M. I. business. This was all going on in the 1840s. I have just glanced at the article, and hope I got right.

I am really impressed with the knowledge you all have. Of course if you have any questions about Civil War firearms, I'm your man. I am learning a lot from you all and it will go into our file with this watch. It seems to be older than I expected. I thought it might be 1860s or a little later. It was carried by a Civil War Solder. There are three marks that look like Hallmarks inside the inner back of the case. There is nothing under the paper of the outer case. I am still wondering what the purpose of the outer case was. Was it just extra protection? This watch seems a bit plain compared to the other Tobias (MI and SI) that I have found on various websites. Would this be classed as a plain workingman's watch. There is nothing fancy about it. I have not had a chance to attach a blow up of the hallmarks in the case. I will try to do that tomorrow. Thanks again to all of you who have contributed.

Where are the bulletins located? I am kind of a guest here so I probably do not have access to them. Could someone send me a copy of #281? It sounds like it might be of value. It is very interesting that SI Tobias might be working in New York and importing knock offs of MI Tobias. Things haven't changed much in the past 160 years. Again thanks for the help. It wonderful how people on the internet are so willing to share their knowledge. I am a member of a Civil War listserve that is very similar. If any of you are interested in Civil War Topics, I recommend you check out
http://cwcollect.com/cwcfaq.htm

Happy Memorial Day to all.

Thanks again to all of you. I am going to think about becoming a member, but there is great danger there. I might also start collecting pocket watches. Actually I am interested in any that were used in the Civil War. I just don't know much about them. I have attached a picture of what I think are hallmarks. It is as large as I dare post on this forum. If any of you have any idea what they are please let me know.

Terry

If this was a British case, both the inner and outer case would be marked. The marks in the inner case are not clear, but do not look right. The fact that the outer case is not marked, leads me to believe we have an American case. Since we have learned that S.I. Tobias was a New York importer (who may or may not have been related to M. I. Tobias) it suggests that this is an imported movement cased in the US. It dates from the 1830s to the 1850s.

You might want to read http://24.153.124.124/watchmaker/cwar.htm to learn about American Civil War Era Watches.

Don

Well we have just about beat this horse to death. Thanks to all for the information given. I am convinced by the papers found inside the watch that it was owned by a Civil War Soldier. I now know that it dates between 1830 and 1850 and that it is an imported movement probably in an American case. The one remaining question, and one of the most important to us is the value of this watch. I need an estimate to give to the donor of the watch to the museum. I hope one or more of you will offer an opinion on this. Remember the watch does not work, and the second hand is missing. What do I tell the donor it is worth? Thanks again and happy Memorial day.

Terry

I can't help on value, but Terry's other unanswered question was about the outer case. You will note that the inner case has a hole for the winding key. The outer case on this watch is basically to help keep dirt from getting into the winding hole. On some fancier watches an outer case might also serve to protect the ornamentation. Some watches, with fancy pair cases, even had a third case for this purpose. "4 Holes JD" would mean four holes jeweled (for the upper and lower balance pivots and the fourth wheel pivots - an unusual combination). The small lever on the edge of the movement is to stop the watch mechanism temporarily (so that the second hand can be synchronized with some standard?).

Samuel Isaacs Tobias was a brother of M.I. Tobias who settled in New York and imported English watches made for him. As these are marked with his own name I do not think they can be considered fakes. The case mark on the left looks like the hallmark for Chester, the center mark is for sterling and the mark on the right should be a date letter if it could be read more clearly. I have seen several Liverpool watches in Chester cases. Samual Tobias died in 1832, but the firm may have been continued by his son, with whom he was in business.

Hello Terry,

As a collector of Civil War weapons and watches, I'm sorry I was off-line the last few days. However, I can see you have been given sound information.

On our Military Timepieces form, there is a post about Civil War era watches and watch chains:

Civil War Era Watches

About 10 years ago, I was selling and trading a large number of Civil War era watches at Civil War collector’s shows. Each batch of my watches sold out fast. I was told this was because I had cleaned and repaired each of them (If only I had the time to have so much fun today). Condition is important, because most Civil War collectors don't know how to repair their watches.

Condition:
As for your watch, the missing second hand is no big deal, it can be easily replaced in the course of cleaning and repair. Although, cleaning and repair of a chain-drive watch is not easy nor cheap!

Keys: New keys are available and these are a few dollars each. An original, plain-jane, iron key will cost about $20.00. To wind the watch, the key must be turned to the left, counter clockwise. This is because the above watch is a chain-drive, most other watches wind to the right - clockwise.

Value:

Provenance is key to the value of this watch. But provenance is also a sticky issue with Civil War artifacts. Given that you collect Civil War artifacts, you know what I’m talking about. The fair market value of the watch alone may be in the $100.00 to $400.00 range (broken, it’s closer to $150.00). However, depending upon the strength of the provenance I would value the watch in the $400.00 to $500.00 range at a well attended Civil War show.

Best regards,
Greg

I have one thing to add.

It seems that more and more Civil War Collectors have finally discovered the Civil War Watch, and it has gone up in price more in the last 8-9 months than I have ever noticed them in the past.

That is not to say, that sometimes they don't even sell, but when they do, they are going at no less than $300-$450 and more.

There is also an article about these watches and the markings like the one below with the Eagle. The eagle represents a time period, and I'm sure some of what is on your watch is listed too. This may help with an exact dating since it was only for about 2 - 2 year periods that this was used. I will try to find it, and post it here.

Last, I have also seen some of these sell for over $1600.00 so it's hard to even guess what the actual selling price would be.

Remember, the ones I mention are MI Tobias!

Check this one out! MI Tobias


DID ANYONE MENTION THAT THIS WATCH IS CALLED A
VERGE-FUSEE ??????

I forgot to mention that I have a Civil War Watch with a name in it, that I have not been able to find much about. Any suggestions on where to look for the name?

Sorry I will have to post the name when I find it.

Sheila,

I may be able to help finding information about the name. Post the name and any information you have about him and I'll see what I can come up with.

Terry

Sheila, Terry may have access to alot of information which has been compiled over the years. One resource is The Civil War Database, available for $25.00 per year:

CIVIL WAR DATA BASE

The above is only one resourse of many. With a name and any other information you may have, sometimes a wealth of information can be located.

Best regards,

Greg

Greg is right. There is a lot of information available on the net. Another good source to start with that is free is http://www.itd.nps.gov/cwss/
The Civil War Soldiers and Sailors System. This is put on by the National Park Service. Not a lot of data, but enough basic information to get you started. I am a subscriber to the Civil War Database and while I don't mind occasionally looking up someone for someone who is not a subscriber, I try to not do it too much because they have put a lot of money and work and need the subscribers. You however are unlikely to be a regular researcher so it would not be wise to subscribe for just one name.

Terry

Thank you one and all!

But........

It turns out that it's not Civil War! Ir's got a date on it of 1898 so I'm thinking that it may be the Spanish American War!

The name is Harry Culbertson Co F 7th Reg.
Camp Alger Va.

Sorry about that, but I sure do appreciate the information that everyone offered for research, I just love it!!!

Tom, Your right, but I really only wanted to show the Eagle, because they were used to date a lot of these for a time, since they were only made like this for not too many years. I think the information is also in the watch guide, and I have not found the paper I have on them yet.
Moving sure has put a crimp in my research materials, I can't find anything.

Again, thank you for the links.

and I never did find much on this one, except a lot of information about the typhoid fever everyone had in the camp in Alger Va.

Talk about some sad living conditions!

Bless,

Sheila, I realize that it simply may not be feasible for most, but I was able to locate information on a particular Soldier who's name is engraved on a watch that I own. I obtained the information from visiting the National Archieves in College Park, MD. The National Archieves stores military unit information that can sometimes reveal a particular name. The other alternative is to request the official military record of the person. I don't have the specific contact info for the service record request, but it is dependant upon which uniformed service the member belonged to. Most of the military records for the Army, Army-Airforce were destroyed in a fire during the 1970's. If I recall, the destruction of records spanned from the early 1900's to the 1970's. I really did enjoy the research into finding out who the person was who owned the watch. In my case, I found out more about the era and circumstances of the person than the actual life of the individual person.

Matthew, Thank you for that one, I'm not far from there at all, I will check it out.

I have also used the National Archives in DC and it's not bad, because the way we come into town, it's before you hit the worst of the rush in DC. but the one in College Park would be even better, I forgot all about that one, and have never been there yet. Nice hot summer day kinda thing to do huh? Thank you,

You can contact Mitchell Yockelson of the Modern Military Records (NWCTM), textural Archives Services Division. (mitchell.yockelson@nara.gov) He can tell you if they might have unit information that might mention his name. The Washington D.C. location is for 1800's and earlier individual records.

To request records the phone number is (301) 837-3510. Research hours are 8:45 AM -5:00 PM M-W, and to 9:00 PM on T-F. To 4:30 PM on Saturday.

Sheila,
About Harry Culbertson, I found this on Ancestry.com (from Ohio Soldiers in the War With Spain, 1898-1899):
Harry Culbertson, Corporal, from West Lafayette (apparently in Ohio, but there is a West Lafayette in Indiana, too), age 21, Company F, 7th Regiment Ohio Volunteer Infantry. Discharged Oct. 4, 1898, per G. O. 124 and 130 A. G.O. and telegraphic instructions from War Dept.
Hope this little bit helps to fill in some info on your man!
Pete

Peter,
I found that one too! However, I have found a few more too! so.......who knows?
Thank you so much for the post, it reminded me to check out a few more things I meant to check about this guy, and had forgotten about it.
Ancestry seems to have so much when looking for a person, we have Genealogy, a sister Co. to Ancestry, but no access to that site, and always seem to find what I want at Ancestry! Maybe it's time to switch.
Thanks again for the informtion.