What does "Great Shape" mean to you? I know it means a little different to each of us but what does it mean to you?

To me it means that it is a running movement with all parts there and in serviceable condition. It does not have to keep RR time but it should run. If it has a dial the it should not have any chips and Hairlines should not distract from the over all movement. The hands should match and not be bent or covered with rust. If it is in a case the case should work as originally intended. The crystal should be there and if plastic should not be yellow and whether glass or plastic should not be covered with deep scratches.

Now let me hear what your definition is.

I'm not as lenient, to me "great shape" means "Extra Fine (G-6)" as defined on page 12 of Shugart's Complete Price Guide to Watches, 2012 Edition.

Harry,
You pretty much got it except that I would like to have it all original.
If it originally had blue spade hands then I would expect it to be presented with those hands. And of course it should run. A nice dial is important but if it is bad it can be replaced. I guess it really depends on what you are looking for. If you just want a running watch or if you expect it to be close to perfect. I think it all depends on what you are after and willing to pay. To me a nice watch should be running & complete in a case with normal wear and a fairly clear crystal. All original.
Patrick

Harry I think you hit a sore subject for the experienced collectors. So many sellers I feel abuse and over rate their items with hype. I do use the the words once in a while but rarely unless I feel something is that nice to warrant those words. It irritates me to see "rare" "mint" "one of a kind" "great condition" on so many auctions when in fact what I feel it isnt. Yes sometimes a watch may be in good condition "for the age" but that doesnt mean it is in great condition to me. Of coarse there are time where I specify the case or dial is in great condition but that is reffering to the specific item not the watch as a whole.

Nearly 8 years ago, when new to collecting, I purchased this "Extra Fine Waltham Model 1857" from a table at one of the first "Marts" I attended where you had to belong to some club in PA to get in (to keep the unsavory types out of reach of fine watches). While the seller took all the cash I had left ($350.00) he assured me that as a rare Waltham 1857 "Private Label", it had been in a private collection for a long time which explained the "near perfect" condition.

I learned later after Joining IHC185 that this was a SWISS FAKE!!!

This early experience steered me away from that PA based group and also searches for "Near Perfect" watches. I have learned to truly enjoy, unusual, technically stimulating well built and well used North American vintage Pocket watches.

Each one that I can restore to "Great Shape" talks to me like reading a book while I work on it, research it's age and probable provenance.

With the advent of Ebay and sites like this it is easy to come up with your own expression of what mint, near mint, excellent, and good is. I look at what I see and determine if the condition warrants the price. Since I don't sell watches that often I figure you can look at all the definitions that everyone can come up with but in the end it is my description that counts since it is my money being spent and you judge if it is worth the price or not.

Dave that is why I stick to limited brands and limited years so for the riff-raff out there that would just as soon steal your money than take their next breath, I manage to avoid.

I am not, and never will, be in the class of watch collectors that most of you folks are. I have bought several items from the forum and have never been disappointed, because I am dealing with people that know their merchandise and they know that they are selling to an audience that knows it as well.

Now, when it comes to other sale venues, like eBay, you really have to investigate just whom you are buying from. Sure, there are scads of con men, and women out there, but for the most part the preponderance of sellers are honest.

Therefore, it pays to check what other items any particular seller is offering. If forinstance 'Jane's Antiques & Dolls' is selling a nice pocket watch with an over flowery description as to condition you may wish to check what else she primarily sells. If this watch is a one time sale for her you have to make allowances for her lack of knowledge and use of proper terminology and ask questions and/or more photos. I find that most sellers are very willing to answer questions if asked early enough in the sale, in order to assure their success.

If a seller does not respond....I move on. I also run from sellers with private or hidden feedback.

I would now like to say something about a selling description that really bugs me, and that's the use of the word "solid", when it comes to saying '14k solid gold', or 10k, 18k, or any of the silver amalgams.

Yes, we all know that 14k is .585, 10k .4166 and 18k .750 ..... and that my friends is not solid, it's a percentage of the total weight.

We all have pet peeves about something, and the use of "solid' is one of mine. I just had to get that point off my chest, and I hope that at least some of you will agree with me.

Marty

Harry I generally agree with you and with most of what has been written here. I think it is a pretty subjective term and I tend to follow what Martin said and look to see who the seller is and what the other items are the seller might have for sale.

quote:

We all have pet peeves about something, and the use of "solid' is one of mine. I just had to get that point off my chest, and I hope that at least some of you will agree with me.

Martin I agree with your thoughts although I do use the word solid in my descriptions and here is why. I used to put 14k gold and I would always get flooded with emails is this solid 14k or 14k gold filled. So for that reason I use the term solid 14K to help cut down on questions.

Hi Rob, usually "great shape" means your watch has been working out at least three times a week and eating a healthy diet, and limited alcohol intake.... barump bump...

quote:

We all have pet peeves about something, and the use of "solid' is one of mine. I just had to get that point off my chest, and I hope that at least some of you will agree with me.


Martin I agree with your thoughts although I do use the word solid in my descriptions and here is why. I used to put 14k gold and I would always get flooded with emails is this solid 14k or 14k gold filled. So for that reason I use the term solid 14K to help cut down on questions.

Rob:

Yes, I understand what you are saying. I suppose when you are dealing with 'civilians' you have to be extra explicit.

Marty

You know it's funny but I think that I read page 12 once or twice when I first started buying and selling on eBay three years ago. But when you really read it, almost every watch on Ebay and our own "185" auctions are not even average G-4. When a watch has to have the "original" case etc. to qualify then it is pretty tough to be average. We have discussed the term "original" and most watches do not qualify. No papers and boxes, no Original.

I don't use the term "Great Shape" I would rather just say it is a "beautiful watch", and it is when I am finished with it.

I guess that is what makes it so hard when you are a seller, and that is to get it "correct" for everyone.

Now THAT is a term that I think should be used more than "original".

You have to remember though, if you are a seller, and you don't SELL your product, then you will not get even CLOSE to what you should be getting for it. I have been asked many times how I get so much for my watches. All I can say is that it is not just because they are really Beautiful, and for the most part correct, it is also because a lot of so called hype goes into the listing to help educate the prospective buyer. That's just called selling, and I think a lot of people, collectors, interpet the selling part of it all wrong. I see nothing wrong with it, if that is in fact what one is doing.

Regards,
Larry

I agree with Martin and Larry since there are many times that I will see an item and some good pictures but a description like "I am not a watch expert" along with generic terms. If I see good feedback but items sold that are mostly dolls or knick-knacks then I am more confident about the description.

Maybe in the 50's or early 70's one might be able to prove originality but now pfffft! Unless you have the original sales receipt or box (which on some I have seen) then all bets are off.

I tend to look at the pictures more than the description but even with pictures flaws can be hidden but multiple clear pictures makes it easier to see the flaws.

Fuzzy pictures can be a lack of a good camera by someone not used and understanding the problems of taken pictures of a watch or a watch collector that uses the fuzz to hide the flaws.

I have some nice watches but if I used the price guide to grade my watches then if many got over average I would be feeling happy.

just one step below "near mint."