Hello, Newbie here, so my apologies in advance if I use incorrect terms or procedures in my descriptions, since I am just starting to learn about these engineering marvels and my understanding is rudimentary at best. I have an 18KT, what I hope, is a Patek Philippe. The serial numbers on the case covers match, but I believe I am correct that the movement numbers may be under the dial on the movement face. So, my 1st problem is that I think I have a snap fit dial and I can't remove it. There are no dial screws along the edge of the movement that I can find. So, one question I have is: is there a way to determine if this movement is Patek without removing the dial? This key wind key set watch is not running and I believe I know what the problem is. The balance wheel is resting on the lower plate and it wobbles if you prod it gently. I took the balance bridge, hairspring and balance wheel out and the watch unwound smoothly. The hands also moved smoothly and correctly while the watch was unwinding. I wound it up again and observed it and the result was the same. So, everything regarding the train seems to be fine. I believe that the lower balance wheel end stone/jewel has either worn or has been compromised which allowed the balance wheel to settle down and rest on the lower plate. No guarantees, but this is my best estimate of what is keeping this watch from running. This is beyond my abilities to fix, so my next question is: is this worth spending the funds to get it fixed and do any of you know of someone with that expertise? Any input/info will be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

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James, the very early Patek Phillipe watches did include some "cylinder" movements. As yours is a cylinder movement, but your watch's serial numbers do not show on the Patek listing in the rice Guide so more research may be necessary. If it IS a Patek, it is in the $2,000.00 range of value.

It might be just Patek case and some low jewels Swiss movement.

Thanks for the input. Is the movement serial number, if it is a Patek, under the dial? Is my guess about a snap fit dial correct?

quote:

If it IS a Patek, it is in the $2,000.00 range of value.

David, is that in the condition it is in, or if it were back up and running?

James,

To me, this movement doesn't seem to exhibit Patek Phillipe quality and finish from any era. The dial does appear to be a friction type since there are no visible posts and screws. If you can remove it and some matching serial number is hiding beneath it then I am wrong, but I doubt that it's a Patek finished movement. It looks like a common Swiss Ebauche with very basic finish from around 1850.

William

Back again -- for some reason I was able to get the dial off without any trouble . The number on the face of the movement does match the case numbers. So, unless I am interpreting this info incorrectly, this is an intact Patek? And, I would assume it may be worth restoring to running condition? Opinions please - and can anyone recommend a watchsmith to discuss this with? Thanks to all for your past inputs and I look forward to your thoughts.
Jim

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I would recommend you check with the very highly qualified IHC185 Watchmaker, Chris Abell.

http://www.abellwatchmakers.com/

Chris Abell, Certified Watchmaker Taking Work

Thanks David --- I'll give him a call.

Thanks Lindell! I'll start the ball rolling and keep ya'll updated.... appreciate the inputs!

Very interesting watch. Might I ask the history of the piece ??

If original it would be from 1851 to perhaps as late as 1870. I would tend to date it 1868-1871. From your descriptive, I would say the watch will need some custom hand made parts and lathe experience. So choose someone with proper credentials so you will get quality service if it does in fact turn out to be a Patek Philippe.

It was an early time for Patek Philippe & Co. Philippe joined Patek & Cie. in 1845 and the firm's name was changed to Patek Philippe & Co. in 1851. That name is seen on the cuvette of your watch...

As said, very interesting piece, what you can supply as to its history, could be an important factor. Of course the firm which is still in existence does give out "certificates" which they call "Extract from the Archives" which would authenticate your watch, if original, as Lindell has referred you to. There is a charge for this and you will need it for a future sale or to keep with the watch, so it would be a necessity.

As William said the quality sure seems to be lacking for a Patek Philippe, but as said it was also a very early time for them in the new company. They were famous in 1851 for making the best watches thanks to Philippe who was a genius in horology & design. While Patek was off in his philandering & travels, Philippe tended the store and put together only the very best for dignitaries and royalty the world over and many of those early watches were custom one-of-a-kind designs dictated by the customers. Remember, in 1851 the mark of a gentleman, were his horse, his buggy, and of course his watch. There weren't any cars to be had, fancy estates were in vogue however and with a fine stable and a gold watch made by the best, you became the talk of the town

regards,
bb

All good points and advice. If you emailed Patek with a few attached images, and if it was obvious to them that your watch wasn't completely original then you might be able to get a free negative answer. However, if you wanted to know the exact specifications of #32447, they may charge a fee for the search. That being said, it's just a hunch as I've never used their archive service.

William

Buster - Thanks for the advice and the interesting back story of the Patek Philippe Co! I have only had the watch for a short while and sorry, but I don't know any history of the watch. William - I sent them an email last night asking for help in ascertaining the originality of the watch #32447. I also included a link to this page so they can see the photos and also offered to send the photos (they didn't have an attachment feature to their email) if they let me know how. I received a reply that they had received my request and would be getting back to me - so we will see.