Here is a 23 Jewel Vanguard that looks like the 6 Position has been plugged.

Serial # 20038219

Here is more photos

The Dial. has some damage by the Lever.

I have a 23J that was plugged 21 but I've never seen the positions plugged. Looks original tho.

Looks legit since Waltham has been known to do plugs on the 18s. Looks like Waltham took a bit more effort than Elgin. On the grade 506 you will see adjusted 5 positions or adjusted 6 positions but if it is one marked 6 positions if you grab a magnifier you can see that Elgin overstamped the 5 with a 6.

I know nothing about Vanguards but I have a question since both Tom and Claude was it looks good to them.

It appears that the plate with 6 Positions is lettered in black and the other plate appears to be lettered in gold. Is this just the camera angle and lighting or are they different colors and if so do all the Vanguards use teo different color writing?
Thanks,
Harry

Harry I'll pull the plates apart to check the serial #'s. As for as the black not being in the Gold letters it could just mean that the black has fallen out because of cleaning.

If I'm not mistaken. the gold lettering is actually. gold brass beneath white brass and when they engrave it. It shows the gold color. And then some movements [like Illinois ]have black added make the lettering stand out.

Your Vanguard was plugged after it was retrofitted with the Lossier Inner Terminal Hairspring. It was then adjusted to 6 positions. The Black and Gold lettering came that way from the factory.

The two color lettering pattern is standard for this time frame vanguard for some reason, so it doesn't surprise me. The plug on the 6 positions also looks correct as the 21j vanguard I sold Tom had a plug just like it for the jewel count. Here's a pic.

I will try and clean this up the best I can remembering I am on a "learning curve" and am not a "dyed in the wool" Waltham collector, so others comments will be appreciated & needed I feel sure

Waltham was famous for their "drilled & plugged" offerings in their 18sz Model 1892 Vanguards in the jewel count. They were also used sparingly for jewel count on some Ball Walthams. Also in their 21/23 Jewel 16sz Waltham Vanguards this jewel plug was used.

Lastly in their 16sz Vanguard 23Jewel 1908 models from serial number ranges 20,012,801 thru 23,153,000 [mixed runs of wind indicators & regular 23 jewel] watches that Waltham had in their inventory, were drilled and a plug used on the "5-6" Position when & if the "Lossier Inner Terminal Hairspring" was added and that was an upgrade that called for "6" positions being adjusted to instead of "5" positions adjusted to watches. They were sold either way.

These are all generally black lettering on the actual "serial numbers" and the "5-6 Positions" bbl bridge and the train bridge plate was in gold filled lettering consistent with earlier 1908 models.

These are generally models without "U.S.A." markings and the "Adjusted" marking is to the right of the "23 Jewels" marking and not under it.

regards,
bb

Here is the overall on it with the same two color pattern to the lettering... The serial number comes up as a 23j run of vanguards, it was marked 21 jewels and did not have a jeweled barrel, thus making it correctly marked as a 21 jewel movement.

Jared

So it is a little unusual. And more importantly it makes it a little rarer. Because a quick check on eBXX most where marked 5 Position.

Here is a none plugged 6 pos

Gene just so you are perfectly clear about this,

They are a little bit more than "unusual"

They should be listed as a "variant"... There are no known numbers for the "drilled & plugged" variants which aren't seen often.

Possibly you might suggest that in the next printing of the Price Guide.

The only logical way to arrive at a pricing without knowing how many units were made would be by the supply & demand factor. They should escalate in price in years ahead "if" more people begin to know that they exist and are a variant and if the variant is listed in the Price Guide.

The later "drilled & plugged" 16sz Vanguards were not even discussed in watch circles until 2003 !!

regards,
bb

Has anyone ever run across a 12sz Waltham "plugged"?

There was mention of Waltham on 18sz by Claude, and Jared and Eugene have some 16sz

This one is a 5 position adjust - OF

Buster thank You for the wealth of knowledge that you bring to this site.

Gene, as your watch appears to be a 1915 production, I am especially interested in the "Lossier" click wheel which is very early for that watch. That may correspond with the "why" of the 6 position plug which is highly unusual also for a watch of that vintage.(I expect)

It would be interesting to see if the hairspring has that extra clearance where it emerges to the first "wrap" around the collet.

I was surprised to see that same click wheel showing up so early on Deacon's 1929-30 vintage Vanguard . . .

I think it's interesting to see the labor-intensive lengths that Waltham was willing to go to in salvaging a plate that would otherwise have to be thrown away. Good old Yankee thrift I guess!

I agree with Buster, that "drilled and plugged" examples are cool enough to warrant recognition by the watch collecting community as legitimate variants. As for numbers of examples that are out there, I suggest that starting a database would be the best way to get a handle on that.

Hope this helps

Another

Thanks You Dave for posting.

Jared; I've still got the one you sold me. I'll post pics up here sometime. Do you think all the 16S 21J vanguards were plugged? I can't recall ever seeing one that wasn't.

Tom-

I wondered about that too if they weren't all plugged? the other serial number you provided me was from a 23j run also for a downgraded 21j, so it would make sense if they were all made form 23j model plates that were already manufactured and had to be plugged to make the 21j plate. I would suppose by that time in the market that the person wouldn't care too much if it was plugged as long as it was the correct jewel count and kept time as it was supposed to.

Jared

Not owning a Vanguard but will someday I want to thank all of you for so much wonderful information on these unusual variants of the Waltham Vanguard.

Harry