Over the years buying and selling watches I seem to find quite a few watches with the balance over lapped like shown in the picture. I come accross to many for this to be a mistake by a watchmaker. Is this something that happens from different climates. I am sure others have seen this as much as I have seen it.

my2cents -

One possible scenario:

When the balance wheel is held incorrectly and too much pressure is applied to the perimeter of the wheel the metal can be pushed together at the gap (weakest point).

Might have been when someone added the extra weights to the wheel. There looks to be some color difference (tarnish) of the weights on the wheel.

Or while someone replaced the hairspring or balance staff

Just curious will the movement run as is?

Rob I certainly don't know but I have seen similar balance wheels before only both sides were overlapped. I would guess if it were temperature differences from different climates that both sides of the balance wheel would be the same as with what I have seen, there again just a guess.

Your balance wheel looks fine on the other end. So I would agree with Jon and in your case it is probably a job of careless handling. I may be totally off base but that is the best I can come up with.

Hi Rob,

Have a look at the roller see if that looks heated or damage, I have seen this happen when someone trying to change a roller jewel getting the balance to close and hot the arm discolors and bends in, and as Jon say may have been pushed in also, I have a photo of one with the arms glued together!...

Hi Robert,
Its hard to belive some of the things you can
see.you wouldn't think somthing like this could
escape with out being noticed.If it got out I bet
the watch had a good rate.
Hub.

The ends pop back out into proper location and sometimes it is just one sometimes both sides are like this. When I first started to notice this years ago I thought it was careless handling but I have seen so many I figured it had to be more than that. I buy from all over and a lot of my watches probably have been sitting somewhere for long periods. So with that said that is why I wondered if it had something to do with the temperture changes. Just to many I have seen for me to believe it is careless handling.

- Chris -

You bring up a question:

The old school (correct) way is to shellac in a roller jewel; however, I have run across watches that have the roller jewel held in with other fixes.

Therefore, is there any other method besides shellac for holding a roller in place that is acceptable?

I have seen many adhesives used, including simply jamming steel/brass pins in place its poor practice and unnecessary , for me on pocket watches I use shellac only its very easy to use, and with a gentle warming (and it only needs warming) allows for any removal or adjustment of parts, I have never had any problem with cleaning fluid or denatured alcohol softening it, problems arise when it gets abused overheated or exposed to home made cleaning fluids, I will often replace old hard shellac it only take a minute or so. As I disassemble the watch its worth a few seconds to check pallet stones and roller jewel if damaged or discolored better to replace before risking losing loose stones in the fluid.
If you have a old balance try heating it and see how much heat it needs to get the arms to bend in and screws discolor as in robs watch above!

Jon I know some people have told me that super glue works the only thing I wonder is does the watch cleaner loosen the glue and you have glue it back. I am by no means a repairman but just my thoughts as a mechanic.

Jon, to answer your question, no.

Super Glue is impervious to water, tolerable heat and most solvents including all watch cleaners I have used. In earlier years, I used about 4 different viscosities of it in vast quantities while doing RC Models. The cyandide based odors are not healthy though and a fan always had to be used to waft the odors away from the work site.

Lucky for us, when using Super Glue on "small jobs" there are only tiny transient odors. I have tried both and prefer super glue for Roller Jewels, but stay with shellac for the Pallet Jewels as they sometimes need adjustment after "setting".

Dave, So you are saying Super glue stand up to ammoniated cleaners.

I also super glue the roller jewels in and would agree with David on the pallet jewels only being installed with shellac. I use Zenith formula 67 ammoniated cleaner and have not had it dissolve the super glue I use. It may if you left it in there for long periods of time, but don't have issues myself with it for general cleaning of a watch. I have had some roller jewels fall out during cleaning that may have been an old type glue possibly, but as Chris also mentions the Shellac holds up to the ultrasonic cleaning too.

Thanks,

Jared

To avoid the entire issue of losing a roller jewel in the ultrasonic cleaning solution:

would it be easier to just remove the balance assembly from the movement (one screw on the balance cock) and just use one dip on the hairspring and clean separately?

Jon,
If the roller jewel is in good order checked before cleaning and the cleaning machine operating correctly with correct cleaning fluids used there no reason it should not be cleaned in the machine I will often re dip the hairspring escape wheel and pallet in one dip after they have been through the cleaning machine, its imperative the hairspring is clean and free from all traces of oil and contaminates one dip has a very short usable life span, I have a special small jar and will use once and dispose of I also have other dips I use to apply coating ($100 for a very small bottle indeed) to the pallet and escape wheel on certain watches it’s more a series of cleans and preparations.
Re shellac V super glue
Shellac when used correctly will flow and bond far better than super glue that can create a poor unseen bond. Shellac is very easy to use original to watch, can be easily adjusted, cheap, no fumes etc….

Just to return to Rob's original question in this post, the few times I have inadvertently "locked" the free end of the Balance wheel under the solid end as Rob shows, I gently slide the free end out sideways and it will spring back where it belongs without damage.

This will happen when timing the watch which requires either undercutting or adding timing washers to the wheel weights. Doing that,I have to remove the Balance Cock/Wheel assembly, put it on my Tack and then gently hold the wheel while unscrewing each of an opposing pair of balance weights for timing work. Sometimes that results in the free end of the wheel "clipping" itself as Rob's picture shows because we have to lightly hold the wheel at the ends of the crossbars to manipulate the weights.