I am getting a new 18s RR grade Elgin.This one is a 21J lever-set Father Time hunter, SN 12120403.(Full plate).I'm about thoroughly confused about what grade number this is.I looked it up in the Elgin site database, it's listed as a gr.348, and it does have the same damaskeening pattern as the 348, but obviously it is a Father Time.Apparently these were marked in different ways? Looks like a lower production number grade, so I think it may be an uncommon one, but may not be that rare.I always thought 348's were marked 348.Anyone have any experience with these, or been down this road before? I'm not that used to Elgin"s grade number system.It is a beautiful movement though, has gold jewel settings and balance screws,gold inlaid lettering, some F.T.'s had black lettering.Thanks!...Ted.

quote:

12120403

Wayne Schlitt's Elgin site has the following;
http://elginwatches.org/cgi-bi...120403&action=search

Search Results For "12120403"

Serial Number SN Range Quanty Name Year grade size code jewels Adj/reg/etc.
-------------- -------- ------ ---- ---- ----- ---- ------ ------ ------------
12120403 12120001 1000 348 1905 348 18s hfn2l 21j Adj
last run of grade 348; 3101 of 3698 in grade;
# Elgin Master Records say the first 500 were changed from G=149. No watches from the last 500 have been seen. (please report any!)


grade total runs first yr last yr class size code jewels Adj/name
----- ----- ----- -------- ------- ----- ---- ------ ------ ----------
348 3698 8 1903 1905 1 18s hfn2l 21j Adj / 348


Class 1: 18s HC fp
27 45000 made lever model 2-4 15-17j Adj Marked BWR, None or STD. are there really unmarked mvts?
69 29154 made key model 1 15j U-A Marked BWR or None. gilded are there really unmarked mvts? # REG_FREE or REG_ELGIN?
70 74500 made lever model 2-4 15-17j Adj Marked BWR, NWC or None. gilded are there really unmarked mvts? # some are "transitional" Either Keywind or pendant wind.
149 9600 made lever model 2-4 20-21j Adj Marked None, 149 or FT. double roller starts at 10422401
164 5000 made lever model 2-4 17j Adj some were changed to G=995
183 11702 made lever model 2-4 17j Adj Marked BWR.
348 3698 made lever model 2-4 21j Adj Marked 348.
995 1000 made lever model 2-4 21j Adj Marked FT. this is really a G=164

Here's the Elgin Grade Number Data;
http://elginwatches.org/cgi-bin/elgin_grades

*Hopefully you will find some helpful info on your watch in there. I know Claude will get back and tell you what you desire that isn't quite plain. He's our Elgin guru.*

Interesting and perhaps confusing at the same time isn't it !! LoL !!

regards,
bb

Thanks Buster, that's the same info I saw too.Hopefully Claude will come to the rescue.I know he has some 348's, maybe he has one like mine and can unravel the mystery.It's funny, I've been trying to nail down a Father Time for years, suddenly this one and a 16s one just kind of fell in my lap! Merry Christmas, Ted.

Yes hopefully so.
At the end of the nineteenth century, The Elgin
National Watch Co. came out with a grade of standard watch that, was high quality and saw extensive use in RR time service, and largely ignored by collectors.
That grade "Father Time" wasn't promoted like the B.W. Raymond or Veritas Grades. So lots of folks ask, "Is Father Time really a Grade ? "
Elgin as well as other American watch companies were continually coming out with and assigning new grade numbers as changes and improvements were made, and Elgin applied grade names to groups of movements of multiple grade numbers. To further confuse us, some movements of the same grade
number were signed with different grade names, or
with no grade name, mixed with the same run of watches of that grade number. As it did with other grade names, Elgin applied the Father Time name to a whole range of movements of various models and grade numbers, in both 16 and 18 sizes for RR use. The Father Time name was only applied to movements with 21 Jewels.
Later and for our own convenience we refer to all these watches collectively as the Father Time grade. Blocks of serial numbers were assigned in chronological order as runs were scheduled for production. For slower selling watches, such as hunting-case movements around the turn-of-the-century, the unfinished movements may have been held in inventory for several years before they were completed.
My humble and incomplete research shows your watch to be a Grade 348 that is marked "Father Time".


Serial Numbers in Grade 348: 3400
Years of Production for Grade 348: 1904 to 1906

Serial Number Ranges of Grade 348 Movements by Year

Click the year for production information on the other grades produced at that time.
1904, 10422501 to 10422600, 100 units
1904, 10422701 to 10423000, 300 units
1905, 11185001 to 11186000, 1000 units
1905, 11612001 to 11613000, 1000 units
1906, 12120001 to 12121000, 1000 units

Elgin Grade Number 348
Grade: 348
Size: 18
Jewels: 21
Class: 1
Model: 2-4
Finish: Nickel damaskeening
Adjusted: Yes
Named for: None
Grade 348 may be marked for 348.
Description: Hunter case movement. Lever set. Full plate.
Rate: 18,000 bph
Grade 348: There are believed to be no grade 348 movements numbered above about 12120500. Elgin likely did not complete this run.

And to further complicate matters, yours was a Grade 149 converted to a Grade 348, ie and marked "Father Time" !!



Merry Christmas.

regards,
bb

Buster, I think you just gave the best explanation possible on this, now it makes a lot more sense at least to me.Thanks for all your help! Take care, Ted.

The grade 348 was a mix of what was left over for the most part. It was aligned in grade number to match of with the 349. Many of the 348s were upjeweled grade 183s 17>21 jewel. There were some left over FT149s sitting in the warehouse (based on the comment that the barrel plate was replaced) in the 10M range. There was a big run or 1000 that appears to be start from scratch 348's with the 183 dmk design and then there was a series of about 500 149s that were on the floor based on 149 factory notes. It appears that only about 500 of the 149s in the 10M or 12.2M range were used and there is doubt that even though the production run in the 12.2M range was allotted that they were actually produced and your 403 probably is near the top of the ones recorded. I have two converted 149s in this range, one about 091 and the other 120, 091 has the dmk pattern that yours does but 120 has the star pattern that you see on the 149s and is marked "5 Positions". I also have one in the lower 10M range along with the 183 upjeweled versions.

http://elginwatches.org/scans/...grade_149_notes.html

As a side note no 149>348 conversion is marked Father Time that I have seen since the lower 149s in the 10M range from factory notes the barrel plate was replaced (149s had FT on the barrel plate) and the new barrel plates were marked 348. All the upjewel or big run (1000) 348s used the 183 design with black lettering whereas the converted 149s used guilt lettering without regards to the lower 10M or the upper 12.2M range. So as a general rule if you see 348 and see guilt, jump on the bid unless it is trashed badly since no matter what there are only about 500 of these in the upper or lower serial number ranges with the 348 marking and all of the 149s were adj5p. BTW from the photo I can't tell if the one pictured is marked "5 Positions"

Search Results For "g=348"
Serial Number SN Range Quanty Name Year grade size code jewels Adj/reg/etc.
-------------- -------- ------ ---- ---- ----- ---- ------ ------ ------------
10422501 10422501 100 348 1903 348 18s hfn2l 21j Adj
first run of grade 348; 1 of 3698 in grade;
# Master Records say: changed from 149 to 348 07/09/1906

10422701 10422701 300 348 1903 348 18s hfn2l 21j Adj
# Master Records say: changed from 149 to 348 07/09/1906

10763701 10763701 300 348 1903 348 18s hfn2l 21j Adj
# 1950 MC says double roller starts at 10763701 listed as G=183 in the 1950 MC but said to be G=348 in the Elgin Master Records

11185001 11185001 139 348 1904 348 18s hfn2l 21j Adj
# originally marked as a G=183 but are G=348 according to the elgin Master Records

11185141 11185141 113 348 1904 348 18s hfn2l 21j Adj
# originally marked as a G=183 but are G=348 according to the elgin Master Records

11185255 11185255 746 348 1904 348 18s hfn2l 21j Adj
# originally marked as a G=183 but are G=348 according to the elgin Master Records

11612001 11612001 1000 348 1904 348 18s hfn2l 21j Adj
# 1915 MC shows grade as "183r", maybe this is a BWR? # I changed this from grade 183 to 348 'cause, well, I think elgin changed the grade

12120001 12120001 1000 348 1905 348 18s hfn2l 21j Adj
last run of grade 348;
# Elgin Master Records say the first 500 were changed from G=149. No watches from the last 500 have been seen. (please report any!)
total watches found: 3698

http://photobucket.com/gallery...I0MDdiOTIuanBn/?ref= what I call the star pattern

quote:

So as a general rule if you see 348 and see guilt, jump on the bid unless it is trashed badly since no matter what there are only about 500 of these in the upper or lower serial number ranges with the 348 marking and all of the 149s were adj5p.

Claude; Here's one I have slated for restoration. Is this one of the 500 converted 149s?

Claude, thanks for your input! You can see why I was a little bewildered, between you and Buster you have it figured out as much as can be.Sounds like Elgin was trying to do what had to be done to finish these up and get them out the door.They sure are a nice looking watch, I'm glad to have this one! ....Ted.

Nice 348 Tom! I always wondered why they put a different damaskeen pattern on its brother, the 349, I guess that helps add to the mystery too.What dial does that one have?

Ted/Tom the 183/348 has a much simpler design on the balance cock that looks like a flower and all that I have seen are black engraving. The one you have posted is in the lower 400 149s that were converted, one group of 100 and another group of 300, the one pictured is from the group of 300. This one is a typical converted 183/348

notice the dmk on the plates and balance cock is much different.

Tom I will have to check what the serial number is for my 149/348 from the lower run and let you know. Ted I think Elgin was dealing with the shifting market, Mr Ball was out harping on 18s watches and was not happy that Elgin would not sell him the Veritas grade to use since that was the best 18s in the 1900-1915 time frame and the full plates were viewed as old technology. I think they had about 1000 183s that they need to work off along with some slow moving 149s (originally started in 1895 and replaced by the 274 in the 3/4 plate 18s). The 349 was a workhorse RR watch up until the end of the 18s run so have a hunter mate fit into Elgin's marketing with hunter/openface mates. I think the upjewel the 183 stock, changed the barrel plate to show 348 and used that as a strategy to sell off the slow moving stock. I thought my 149/348 091 in the upper range was an oddity because it had the look of a 183/348 from the pictures but once it arrived it was clear that it was a 149/348.
Tom in your case if you look at the numbers for the converted 149/348's you have one of about 900 watches since the total number produced is suspect in the upper range but the serial number xxx403 that is posted means at least 403 were made but I would think 500 were made and they stopped. These are high grade adjusted to 5 position movements and on some lines this watch could have been used for RR service. The big run that Wayne mentions were marked as 183R, on all others the runs were not sequential for 1000 but groups less than 1000 but only the 11,6xx,xxx run was 1000 sequential. Probably the R did not stand for Raymond but for revision (17>21 revision). The 149/348s were all adj5p but I do not know what the 183/348s were, it would be nice to see some factory notes on the 183s.
If you are collecting differences then the 348 has 3 to collect, 1- the 149s to 348s, 2- the 183s to 348s and the big run which I think started life as a revised 183 with 21 jewels and not a converted 183.

Claude, I noticed on that 348, most of the lettering fonts are different than the gold lettered one.The Elgin signature is like my 353 has, the word adjusted is totally different, as is the SN and" safety pinion". Is that one a frosted finish, almost looks like it is.

I think the 149s and 150s probably have more dmk variation than what they are credited with. The 20j versions of the 150 and 149 shifted even within a run of 500, I have 2 149s that are 20j versions, one early and on in the 400 range and they look totally different. If Buster can post the serial number of the one above if it falls within the serial number run of the big run then that means that Elgin moved from the black engraving on the 183s to the gilt engraving on the 348 to better mate up with the 349 and that would add a 4th variation. On the two 149/348s that I have they are only about 30 units apart and the dmk effect is totally different and the one that is around 120 is marked "5 Positions" but 091 isn't.
I value these 149/348s in the same range as the 20j 149/150s since 500 or less were made and they are unique grade variations.

I went back to Buster's photo and zoomed in to about 300% and that movement is from the 1161x,xxx run or the big run and it does have gilt lettering so it was aligned with the later 349s but it appears to still have the simple 183 style engraving. So that would make it a 4th variation of 1000 total.

Hi Ted ask me to post a few pics of his Elgin Father Time hunter watch. Here they are:

Rob
www.pocketwatchrepairs.net

pic 2

3 pic

Rob
www.pocketwatchrepairs.net

Looks like when they were switching and replacing the barrel plate (per the factory records) and one did not get the change over to the 348. It would be interesting to see if there are any 149FTs with a serial number in this range >403 if so that means that Elgin might have changed their minds and made a few more still marked Father Time. Or on the wind down if they decided to stop they just left the FT plate on and sold it as a Father Time hunter.

Ted what you have is a grade 149 Father Time,Wayne made the assumption that the complete run was converted but if you look at the factory notes (link above) it does not say that, it shows that 000-099, 100-199, 200-299,300-399 were the only ones converted to 348s.

It is noted 348> 12120000-100-200-300-400. This total also equals the total that they took from the 10,422 run which was also 400. 100+300. That is why they have never seen a 348 marked 149, they probably never existed, yours is proof that they probably did finish the run but they were not marked 348's but marked Father Time as they should be. You could debate if 400 is a 348 or a 149FT but I would expect 400 to have been a 149FT.

Thanks for all your help with this Claude, it doesn't take much to confuse me! It's a beautiful watch that I'm happy to have!Rob did a nice job on it....Ted.

Thanks to Rob for showing the watch, it came out really nice! I got this as a movement only, had to track down a good case for it ,was lucky enough to find one.It had an incorrect dial, but I found this nice "49" dial for it, now it looks right. I imagine even the Elgin guys keeping the records were tearing their hair out trying keep up with all this grade switching that went on.Thanks again Rob!!

Ted in all honesty, myself along with many others took Wayne's comments as being correct about the upper run but if you do look at the notes it states that 400 was noted as the last of the conversions and your 403 proves that to be the case. If you take Wayne's notes, the 348 is a smaller total, 100+300 (lower converted 149s) plus 300+139+113+746 (converted 183s from 17 to 21j) plus 1000 (big run 348s) + 400 (upper converted 149s). Which should equal if my calculator is working correctly to 3,098 not 3,698 which assumed a full run of the upper 149s were converted.

So you still have a very unique watch, it proves the factory notes were correct, that either 12,120,399 or 12,120,400 was the last of the converted 149s with the barrel plate changed and marked to 348 and probably 12,120,400-999 were marked Father Time and should be considered 149s and not 348s.
They show both ,402 and 403 as being marked as Father Time so at some point someone should go back and point this out that in the Factory notes only up to ,400 was noted as being converted and 402 and 403 show the other run of 149s were not converted. We would not know how many of the ,400-999 149 Father Times were completed but we at least know the 400-500 units probably were. This also means besides the 348 total being off that the 149 total is off and should be higher with a comment that it is not known if the 12,120,400-999 run was complete. I doubt that the big guns will go with that suggestion but clearly the factory records and two watches provide pretty strong evidence that is the case.


I looked at the other database and this is what they show

May 4, 2013:
Serial Number 12120403 was reported as accurate

April 18, 2013:
Serial Number 12120402 was reported as inaccurate
Note: father time movement

April 18, 2013:
Serial Number 12120402 was reported as accurate

If anyone has an Elgin that is marked as a 348 please post a photo of it, I will dig out the ones I have and take photos. I have one in the lower 149 conversion run (like Tom's) I have two in the upper 12,120,xxx run and one or two in the 183 conversion runs.

In Wayne's notes he seem to imply the full run of 1000 11,612,xxx was different and noted as 183r and I think he was correct and I think Buster's watch shows what the difference was, started as a 21j version along with gilt markings along the line of the 183 dmk design effect but gilt to align with the 349.

Probably any 348 marked movement in the 12,120,xxx range will be 400 or less.

Probably any Father Time marked movement in the 12,120,xxx range will be 400 or higher.

Any watch in the 12,120,xxx range were grade 149's with the exception of the ones noted that the barrel plate was changed.

The following is noted in the factory notes dated July 9th 1906

10,422,500-700-800-900
12,120,000-100-200-300-400

Changed to Grade 348 Discarded Bar. Bridge, making new ones, Engraving them to 348.

I have two in the upper range, one in the 000-099 (091) and one in the 100-199 range (120). Anyone that has any in the 200 or 300 range please comment even if you don't post a photo.

The Father Times with the serial number 12,120,402 and 403 support that the cutoff for the 149s that had the barrel plate replaced was either 12,120,399 or 12,120,400.

The 348s marked in the 10,422, xxx range one could take the notation to mean that 10,422,500-700 were converted along with 700-800-900 or 10,422,500, 700, 800, 900 were done depending on how you determine what is correct you are either looking at 400 or 500 depending on how take the notation. It would be nice to see if any in the 10,422,600-699 are marked 348 or Father Time.

Tom's is marked 10,422,947 so probably 500-599, 700-799, 800-899, 900-999 or 400 total from the the 10,422,xxx run.

A bit of FYI, I found a photo of a 348 with a 11,612,870 serial number and it is looks like a 183 conversion, it has the 183 dmk effect and black engraving.

So that would mean at least 4 variations:

1- converted 149s either from upper or lower serial number range.
2- converted 183s up-jeweled from 17 to 21 jewels.
3- large run (11,612,xxx) with 183 dmk and black engraving.
4- large run (11,612,xxx) with 183 dmk and gilt engraving.

Claude, I notice that 12120402 was reported as inaccurate, and then accurate in the same date.I wonder what that was all about.So someone out there has the consecutive SN to mine. The plot keeps thickening on these! I guess mine is on the rare side by the sound of all this.To be honest, I just wanted a nice Father Time, and I balk at hunters because of the problems casing them , but I got this thinking I may not ever get another chance, since this was priced right, they usually go for way more than I can afford.Now I'm glad I did.Now that this is all brought to light,I can't wait to see if anyone shows any others like this or 348's converted. Thanks for all your work on this, it's a little overwhelming!...Ted.

I always wondered if the 348 was at the same quality level as a 149 but either way what you have is a very nice watch, the best Elgin offered in the late 1800's early 1900's. On the 402 I think they placed it as inaccurate because it is not marked 348 and they noted it was a Father Time as though the 348 was ever marked as a Father Time. You see a lot of errors since in the 1950 serial number database the 12,120,000-12,120,999 is listed as a grade 348 but if you look at the grade 149 factory notes it is clear that 12,120,xxx run was meant to be Father Time grade 149s and that is dated in 1906 and if you compare the earlier notes the same writing style is consistent. There is some later notation but clearly it is not the same handwriting.
So whoever created the 1950 serial number list made a partial boo boo and everyone has followed that boo boo even though the earlier 1906 factory records contradict it.
You have a grade 149 Father Time from a run that most say does not exist, nice job! I need to chase a big run gilt trimmed 348 like Buster has and one from the >400 run like you have.

Hey Claude, now I wonder where mine came from, since its SN was reported on that other site, after all this that just occured to me.I'm glad to now know it is a 149.Thanks again, Ted.

Just out of curiosity, I checked with Rob to see if this one is a double roller, and it is.Elgin said the DR's started on these in the 10 millions, so that part of the records is right too.Just think of what a monumental task that must have been to keep records like this,with such a huge operation as Elgin was, so many grades and prod. runs in the works.

Would be nice to see how many times these watches get flipped. It appears your watch was movement only so I would say it might have been a scrapper or disassembler. Buy a decent watch, take it apart and sell the pieces and end up more than you paid for the watch originally. I also wonder if Elgin actually scrapped the Father Time plates they took off the 149s since there were other full plates that ended up with FT labeling that was a bit different, such as the 349 which sometimes shows up marked 349 or Father Time. Why throw away a good plate that had already been finished, and lose the material cost, labor investment and such, simply work it off which appears to be the case with the 349.