I just had to get this one, so I could see what the Dial looked like cleaned up. (Super Cheap)
Supposed to be a MI Tobias, but I doubt it.

Can't wait to see what the Dial looks like under all that mess.
Last time I did this, I got a HONEY of a dial out of it. Wish me luck!

Lindell,
You are so right!

But.........

Turned out to be a Diamond in the rough, with a mish mash of questions about it.

1. It has a Gorgeous Sterling Silver Case!

2. The Dial, although rough, came out Beautiful!

All in all I got a great deal. At $17.00 I got a wonderful Sterling Silver 2 key hole Pocket Watch Case, and a Dial that is really Beautiful, even though it takes a terrible picture.

The Dial looks a lot worse in the picture than it really is, but after about 15 tries, I gave up.

#1

#2 There are engraved flowers on the dial.

(Notice my faithful friend in the background, that Tom gave me. She still ticks like the Gem she is.)

Nice dial Sheila, and good buy.I would if it was me, put wax on the dial to preserve it and keep it looking good.That is if you don,t want the patina when it ages,Just a thought.

Kevin,
Thank you! Great information. Can you tell me what kind of wax to use?

I have not actually finished cleaning it, I did a quick cleaning, to see if I would lose any of the black numbers on the dial.
I'm going to clean it again, and I think the wax would be a great way to keep it nice, save time, and what is left on the dial.

Silver Dials are really hard for me to photograph.

Thanks again for the suggestion.

Sheila, Is the watch running? If not, are the balance staff and hairspring intact? Hands for the watch and a crystal would be easy to find. Great looking watch.

Tom

Sheila i would think car wax would be ok , like Turtle wax.
Maybe someone else has some more sugestions.

Kevin,
Thank you for the info on the wax, I will try it when I clean it again.

Tom,
It's not running and although I think it's a typical fake, it looks exactly like the watch in the 2005 Shugarts Guide on page 30, top left, but with so many that look like that, I have no idea what it is. I will take a picture of it and post it when my camera finishes charging.
OH, and everything looks like it's there. It's a very clean movement too.

Any suggestions on where to look for marks on it?

Sheila, Yours is a typical Swiss bar movement from the 1850-1870 era. There has been lengthy discussion as to whether the MI Tobias watches were fakes or forgeries, or if they were imported and sold by the Tobias family. There has been no conclusion made. These watches were made in both cylinder and lever escapements, and were better than average timekeepers. Yours appears to be very restorable.

Tom

Hi Tom,
I was just getting ready to come in here and ask about the cylinder Escapement, because that's the one that is in mine. Looks like little triangles sitting up on the wheel.

Sorry I missed your message above.

Can you tell me about them? Is one better than another? Or is there any difference?

Thanks for the information. I have also read all the talk about MI and MJ Tobias Watches and this one was listed as an MI Tobias which most think are the original but who knows? I figured it for a cheap one anyway. I wanted 2 or 3 examples of the fakes. I think they are interesting and I like having examples of them, along with my better watches. Unusual watches seem to be pop out at me sometimes.

Sometimes the worse they are the better.

Go Figure!

Somebody has to collect the ones no one else wants.

Hi Sheila, The cylinder escapement was cheaper to make at the time. The lever escapement is thought to be a more stable timekeeper. The cylinders are more difficult to work on, especially if the watch needs to be staffed. If the balance staff is ok and the hairspring is ok, the watch should be restorable.

Tom

Sheila, here is one I bet you'll like. It is a very, very cheap movement, but I love the look.

greg

Greg, that IS a cool watch.

Greg,
Your right, I do like this one! Very nice.

It looks to be in very nice shape, and doesn't look like a cheap one at all. Not to me.

I especially like the second dial, and the deco design under the "Tower" name. Very nice.
Thank you for sharing it.

To me it's about the watch itself, and not how rare it is, or if it's the best. Don't get me wrong, I love a really good watch, but I go for the one that catches my eye first.

Since I have to save up for the good ones, it's nice to be able to pick up a cheap one now and then. Besides, I like a lot of them anyway.

Tom,
I'm not sure about the parts you mentioned, but the watch is on the list, and as soon as I get some crystals done on my other watches, I will start on the rest of my watches. I hope to get them serviced before spring sets in, around here, that could be in JUNE sometime! hehehehe

It's 50 degrees one day, and 20 degrees and snowing the next. !!!!!!

I have decided to put everything on hold and do the crystals first. I can't stand being so worried about all the ones I have that need crystals.

Oh and I do see the wheel turn, looks nice and level, and the spring looks connected to me, but remember, I'm not good at this part of collecting. I leave that to the "Fixers"

I'll pick em, you guys can service em!!!

I meant cheap in the materials used or not used. The plates are very thin, no jewels ect. I think it was, or is called a dollar watch.

One day at school a box of watches was brought into class. We were all to pick a watch of our choice. While everyone else was choosing Walthams, Elgins, etc. I picked this one. Even though everyone else scoffed...I Liked it...and was the first watch I had repaired start to finish. If you've caught some of the alarms that I've resurected you'll get a good idea of what kind of shape this was in(rust,dirt, etc).

greg

Greg,
That makes it even more special to me.

I just love to see a dirty old wreck made into a GEM again. That's the best there is.

I like the style of this one a lot and to know it was rescued makes my day!

Just what is it about seeing a watch restored that gives us such a rush?

It's one that I would never part with for sure.

Greg and Sheila.I recently repaired 2 cheaper watches.One is a Ruhla and the other a Fleet from the Sears store.Both were non running.The Fleet watch has one jewel and the Ruhla none.They have been running a week now and keep decent time.It makes me feel good to take something that someone would have not worked on, or thrown in the garbage, and get it going again.
This really is the meaning of horology to me, preserving.

Greg, Your watch was made by the Ingraham Watch co. It is a dollar watch. Generally, Ingrahams are very difficult to work on--to reassemble. If you could tear apart and put together an Ingraham, you can reassemble anything. The date of mfg will be stamped on the back plate in month and year. Great job. Tom

Kevin,
I couldn't agree more. I love to see a beautiful "Fix". You sure did a beautiful job on this one.

Tom,
I had no idea that they were dificult, nice to know.

Sheila, What makes an Ingraham so difficult is that everything, including the balance, is under one, single backplate. When these were assembled in the factory, the assembler had a special factory jig to hold everything in the right place for assembly. With this jig and the knowledge and experience to use it, one could be assembled in a couple of minutes or less. Without the factory jig, it is a very long, involved process that involves (at least for me) some significant name calling of the watch in the process.

Tom

Tom,
lololololol I absolutely understand significant name calling in the area of "Watchery" !!!!

Even though most of my experience is only in messing with cases and things of this nature, I have had my arguments with the little nerve wracking critters too! Sometimes they just have to be the "brattiest" little creaps in the world huh?

Almost as if they are laughing at your frustration!

That's ok, I make em shake when I walk away and ignore them, then they know that when I come back, that I WILL WIN this time! Works everytime!

See how watches can make you talk like they are people or something!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sheila, here is a photo of the movement. You can see that it is only one plate as Tom stated. To make matters worse(for the repairer) there are no jewels, so you have to be very, very careful as to not get the pivots stuck in any imperfections in the plate. Not excluding scratches or dings(from a previous repair ).

Also, I've been wanting to ask...but keep forgeting to: Are the "flowers" different colors on your watch? I've seen gold, white, and red gold. But, what is yours?

Thanks Tom, if I'm reading correctly...this has a 1 and 49, are you saying that it was mfd. in Jan. 1949?

Another Question! It seems to me that I read somewhere that the lack of screws holding the movement into the case...was some sort of selling point for these watches. Anyone confirm or deny that?

Sorry for all of the "edits"...one track mind...can't wait 'till I get old! My mother-in-law will be 80 this year...I tell her it must be fun!

greg

Hi Greg,
It's pretty interesting actually. There are flowers on the dial that sit up off the dial, they are Gold in color, however the other flowers on the dial are Engraved into the dial, and are naturally a part of the metal. Makes for an interesting look to the dial too. I believe the dial is Silver but I'm not sure. I like it a lot!

The Case is Silver with a Hallmark I have not found yet, but I'm working on it.

Anyway, I do like unusual Dials, and this is one of them.

OH! and I would like to know, Do numbers on the back of the Dial mean anything?

Where do I find information on Watch Dial Manufacturers?

Greg, You are correct on the mfg date--Jan 1949. Yours has a bit of extra special to it. The seconds register is known as a secometer dial, and these are sought after by collectors, even in dollar watches. Besides that, it is in very nice shape.


Tom

I thought that seconds register looked great too. Secometer a nice new word to add to the list!
I do like that style and it sure looks like a nice watch. Thank you for the information too.

Sheila - actually "Secometer" was the term Hamilton used for this feature. I am not sure if it was a trademarked term, but each company seemed to have their own name for the same thing. Waltham called theirs a "Seconds Indicator" and Illinois called it a "Rotor-Second". I guess that in modern collecting circles "Secometer" has caught on and almost become a generic term, probably because Hamiltons are so popular. I do not know what Ingraham or others may have called the feature in their advertising.

I looked in my Ingrahm book by Ly. I found a few watches that are simaliar but had either one feature or another, not all. I also found two referances to(lets say the seconds bit). The "Click"(1940) made referance to the "Secometer" and the other(identical feature) refered to it as a "rotating seconds indicator" in the description of the "Sentinal"(1955).

So I suppose the either would be correct to speak of. Me...I'll probably forget the real name and call it a seconds bit!

Greg

Great Input! It's stuff like this that really helps. Having all the names helps me a lot, because everyone uses all the different names, this way I'm not at a loss when I read everyones posts. Great History Information too!
Thank you

I have had a chance to check in Kurtis Meyers' Trademark book, and "Secometer" was, indeed, a trademark owned by Hamilton and filed in 1929.

Jerry! How did I miss that book? Wow! Is it hard to get? Where can I get one? I collect Hallmark books too. Thank you for the information.

PS Expensive?


OOOPPPSSS! I have this one.