In my cautious introduction to Waltham World, I recently acquired this estate Waltham with a Swiss movement, to be used a carry watch (as are all my other pocket watches).

I was the only bidder, at a third the price of an average Premier Vanguard, and it looks in good condition. Only 1/4 turn of the crown makes it start, and it has a barely audible ticking sound. The UNITAS logo is stamped below the balance wheel.

Is there a prejudice against these later Walthams for "selling out" to the Swiss? Why else would they be so frowned upon?

Also, can someone tell me if/where this watch appears in Engle, Gilbert & Shugart's "Complete Price Guide to Watches"?

If it doesn't have a Waltham made movement, then it's just a watch trading on the Waltham name even though it was marketed by Waltham themselves. In my opinion, the modern Hamiltons are guilty of the same thing but to a higher degree. While they are high quality timepieces, they have no business trading on the reputation of an American company with which they have nothing in common except the name.

I'm with Donald. Prejudice is rather a strong word to use for what is just a lack of collector interest among those of us who collect the old-time American made brands. As collectors we have have a perfect right to go after or not go after whatever watches suit our fancy.

As a collector of American-made Ball and Hamilton pocket watches, I have no interest in the later Swiss-made "Balls" and "Hamiltons" that have nothing in common with the historical Ball or Hamilton Watch Co. except the brand names. That's my preference as a collector, not a prejudice, which implies unfairness.

I'm with you guys. Its not that its not a fine timepiece, its just that its not the American made classic that we all collect and love.

Thanks god you're all collecting Americans so we guys can sometimes pick up some nice Continentals got lost over there

Gerald

That's right Gerald, no one can collect everything, most all collectors have discrete areas of interest. You don't compete with me for American watches, and you don't have to worry about me bidding against you on Continentals.

The price guide has a one line entry in the 16s section of American Waltham Watch Co. that states:

"Swiss Made, 17-25 Jewels $100 $150.00 $250.00"

Paul, the biggest issue here is that as a great Majority of "Made in USA technology products with "Name Brands" have been "outsourced" (sent to Korea, Taiwan, China, India, etc., etc. for production), and the "Holding Companies" who owned the Trademarked Brand names (Waltham, Elgin, RCA, Emerson, Philco, Electrolux, etc., etc) have either leased or sold those names to foreign companies who (in our minds) "prostitute" them by marking them on anything they can that is made anywhere (but the USA) for sale "cheap".

I'd be curious to see the movement of this watch, as Unitas was usually the supplier. You could find most anyone's dial on the front, including Elgin.

Regards! Mark

'Continentals' are perfectly good, serviceable watches, IMHO. I've got several, I even carry one in my rotation.

But, they don't have the history of America and the American watch industry, and the preservation thereof, behind them that the American collector/user (read preservationist) is interested in and inspired by.

Possessing, handling, carrying and caring for my American made watch is a very convienent and very pleasurable way for me to stay connected, all day everyday, with the history of American watch making (the tail end anyway), and thus my roots, that I lived through.

BTW, the 'Continental' in my rotation that I carry is marked as to it's true origins, and doesn't try and pass itself off for something it isn't. That makes it more pleasurable, in it's own unique right, to own and use.

Paul, your Swiss Waltham is everything you say it is, it just not a true American made Waltham. It doesn't help me feel connected.

I must admit, "prejudice" is too strong a word. Thanks to all of you for putting it in perspective.

Mark, here is the movement you wanted to see. Note the "abbreviated" regulator needle.

I'm on a roll down memory lane, staying connected, thanks to IHC185 and it's members!

The year was 1954 and I was in 4th grade and a Cub Scout. Our Cub Scout Den took a field trip to Lincoln, Nebraska, our Capitol city, and toured the State Capitol building. We were invited into the Governor's office where we met Governor Crosby. He greeted each of us individually, shook each of our hands, and gave us each his autograph.

On what was formerly Wayne Schlitt's Elginwatches website (now accessable through the pocketwatchdatabase.com website I believe) there are Elgin historical photographs. One of them shows Gov. Crosby touring Elgin's Lincoln plant and shaking the plant manager's hand.

Talk about staying connected through an interest in American watchmaking history. I too shook the Governor's hand!

Paul, I benefited from an 'adjustment' I received last week when I tried to answer your post.

This week it's your turn!

Thanks, Paul. Your regulator looks just like the one on my Unitas 6431 17j movement in my Elgin from the mid 70's.

Regards! Mark

I have one Waltham with the same movement. The regulator needle is not only abbreviated, it's not there at all. Anyway, they are good timekeepers if you manage to regulate them properly. That, on the other hand, is a handful to say the least. They are extremely sensitive.
I started collecting European watches (Swiss, Russian, German, Swedish) but they are so difficult to research as to maker and time frame. Particularly the Swiss ones. Then I found the American watches and got hooked. The reason I have a Swiss Waltham is that I like to have an example as to what happens when the market disappear. I'm looking for an Elgin and a Hamilton of the same origin for the same reason.

Regards, Krister.

Ihad bought on with the same face as yours, it is Swiss made and I bought it to carry and it runs and keeps very good time. You will not be replacing balance staffs as much if it were an older Waltham it wont disapoint you. Jeff

I also have a Swiss Waltham but it is 25 jewels incabloc. Really runs well.Loses about a min. a week.Although not American.A very nice watch.
Regards
Roger

Paul's watch is a part of the history of the Waltham company but to most collectors, it is a sad part. When Waltham started importing Swiss movements, the company was already in serious decline from it's glory days and shut down completely not long afterwards. The more modern watches made after the closures of the American companies that say Waltham, Elgin, or Hamilton on them are not a part of those companies histories and are, with the exception of the Hamiltons, of a much lower grade than the vintage American products.

Waltham created the Waltham Swiss factory in 1952 to make parts for Waltham since at that time they saw the writing on the wall. Elgin also did this when they moved much of the manufacturing for South Carolina and I would agree there is prejudice. There are at least 4 Elgin grades such as the 657, 755, 867, and 956 that were at least cased and partially assembled by American workers in SC cased in gold cases marked "Cased and timed by Elgin Watch co" but the movements were either French or Swiss design. I have a version of each grade since there were a part of Elgin's history, although it was the last gasp before their demise. All are 17j although there were some alterations to 23j for presentation watches. Cleaned and serviced any of the these grades are great time keepers especially the first two which were French designed movements. All are marked unadjusted but that was only done to beat the trariff at the time on adjusted watches imported into the US, I would think any one of these are made with the later alloys for the balance and hairspring so heat and cold would not be an issue.