I've been wondering for some time now the physical difference between an unmarked watch and one marked Adjusted to (any number of) Positions. I understand the goal of accuracy, and the six positions the stem can be oriented. But what is the actual difference in the watch?

Below is a balance from the lowest Seth in my collection: a Grade 59, which is an unadjusted, 15-jewel, lever-set nickel Model 5 movement.

And we see a bi-metallic cut balance with an overcoil hairspring, four meantime screws, assorted gold weights, four jewels on the staff, and a micro-regulator on the outboard whip.

And here is the balance assembly from my 260, one of Seth Thomas's top-shelf movements that is marked Adjusted to Six Positions.

And what do we see? A bi-metallic cut balance with an overcoil hairspring, four meantime screws, assorted gold weights, four jewels on the staff, and a micro-regulator on the outboard whip.

It's the same balance assembly.

Here's the balance from the highest-grade Seth in my collection - the two-tone Maiden Lane, 24 jewels and marked Adjusted to Six Positions.

And it's exactly the same - a bi-metallic cut balance with an overcoil hairspring, four meantime screws, assorted gold weights, four jewels on the staff, and a micro-regulator on the outboard whip.

So what exactly is the hardware difference between Unadjusted and Adjusted to Positions?

Eric building the watch was extremely labor intensive so "adjusting" was basically taking the time to tweak and tune the watch. I am sure that on many 17-19 jewel watches were basically built the same but adjusting was the extra labor effort to tweak the weights and tolerances on the piviot free play and extra effort poising the balance and such. I would say there were many unadjusted watches that would hang with the best of the adjusted watches.

In the case of adjusting to positions that meant even if the watch basically passed the specs more or less by default they still had to check each position which tied up more labor effort.

I have wondered about this myself. I just assumed (which apparently one should never do) that any watch could be adjusted to 6 positions if the people in the factory were to take the time to do it. As to whether the components of a "low end" watch would hold the adjustments and maintain the accuracy can't say. Perhaps they could and the difference in price for an adjusted watch was for the time taken to do the adjustments, a few extra jewels and some fancy damaskening.

A question for Dave Abbe who I am sure will be here eventually. Just how much time is involved in properly doing the adjustments for 6 positions?

A couple comments about this,
Eric, I do not see any mean time screws on the 260, which (in fact) was probably the best adjusted of all three of your beautiful Seth Thomas watches.

Second, I have worked on some 7 Jewel Model 1899 Waltham watches which had 4 mean time screws and excellent positions. They were also marked "P" grade.

Third, VERY FEW Elgin watches of any grade have ANY mean time screws, in fact the few that do have adjustable Balance weights have studded Mean time Nuts!

Fourth, I DO NOT do 6 position adjustments and pass that question on to Chris Abell.

Fifth, I have finished watches that can be carried and hold RR time standards. If/when after I clean and lube them they are perfectly poised (balance wheel IS balanced), have <1.5 Milliseconds beat error, a very clean movement, good pivots, no wobble in ANY of the last 4 pivoted rotating parts and a fresh mainspring.

The amount of time to do my best running watches is never less than three hours.

I always thought that the adjusted feature was shorthand, in a sense, for the manufacturer taking extra time to make sure the watch ran within the desired tolerance in the 3-5-6 positions stated. If the watch was to be a railroad grade time keeper than it had to run within the minutes or seconds required in a span of time. In theory the better the quality of the watches components, combined with fine tuning in the various positions leads to a better time keeping ability in the watch. However I have had a number of watches, including a Trenton for instance, that were lower priced watches but kept time quite well. I have a 14s key wound English watch of decent quality (I got it from Dave Abbe) that is an excellent timekeeper and I doubt it would have been considered as more than minimally adjusted. You can say that finish and adjustment are good indicators but you never know when that Hampden Champion will also be a good timekeeper. I guess that is one reason we find mechanical watches so interesting.

Great question Eric, I always presumed that it was the extra labor involved AND the use of higher grade materials that gave it the "adjusted" status. Would be interesting to see how your three examples would compare against each other in the accuracy department

I see and read, but am not sure I understand. If the balance and/or timing screws on a balance are turned to adjust a watch for a particular dial position, wouldn't it adversely affect the timing in another position? This could go on ad infinitum. Or.... maybe that is exactly what happens and why it takes so long to make 6 position adjustments.

I think most of the specifications I have seen show each position being check for 24 hours. If that was the case figure at least 3 extra days for a3p, 5 extra days for a5p and so forth. Probably at most mid quality watches that were adjusted for heat/cold/iso I would think the technology would be there and probably for the most part they were using many of the same parts so adjusting would be a minor detail, the time doing it was the major detail.

I am sure the bean counters had a cost per each extra day a watch was in the factory that was made up of labor and other costs.

If you think about it a bit there are a few adjusted 4 positions watches out there probably because of some spec for trolley service of something else, so that would be all except for dial up and dial down.

In the case of a adj4p movement I would think that it would keep time as good as a adj5p the only difference was one was marked adj4p and the other adj5p and the only difference was the marking and the extra time to get that higher digit in that marking.

Some where I read that a watch was keep in the timing room for 6 months. You have to remember they had thousands of watches that where wound each day. It might of been in the post about the Illinois Watch co.

Then after a week of one position they would check there loss/gain of time. then to the next position. There are photos of Thousands of watches on a wall with Men in suits standing next to them.

Can you even imaging to wind 3 thousand watches every day.

A one day of each position would not tell you how accurate the watch was. Not back in the day when you had the safety of the railroad riding on you back.

The cost of ones trains cargo and equipment would be worth astronomical amounts.

I get it now; there is no hardware difference at all in the balance assemblies, unless you want to debate diamond end stones versus sapphire or ruby. The workers simply took the time to make sure the watch kept time in all positions.

But going back to what Mike asked, if there was a discrepancy in a given position, how was that particular timing issue corrected without screwing up the other five positions?

Assuming the balance is in beat, the wheel itself is perfectly poised, the pallet stones have correct clearance, there are no burrs on either staff pivot, and identical endshake exists on both cap jewels, then how do you correct for a timing error if one of the six positions is out-of-range?

The key word I believe is perfect. Nothing is perfect. Being smart enough to figure what is not perfect. Is the difference between a watchmaker and a Master watchmaker. Basically it is $100,000 worth of training by another Master watchmaker.


This is why it is so hard to get Rolex certified.

In other words I Believe it can not be answered in a paragraph. This is why there are books are made.

Guess I am missing the statement that Hamilton gives for testing the 992B

8 seconds maximum difference between 40 and 95 degrees, 24hrs in each temp in dial up position.

positions

24hrs run in each position before casing

6 secs max variation between dial up and dial down
10 secs max variation between dial up,down and 12 up.
15 secs max variation between between dial up/down, 12 up, 3 up, 9 up.
20 secs max variation between dial up/down, 12 up, 3 up, 9 up. 6 up.

Once this was done the watch was checked in the pendant up position for 5 days, maximum variation between consecutive days was 5 secs.

Hi Eric, very good question. First you need a very small jewelers screw driver and very very steady hands with a light touch. I'll try to explain how to adjust a watch to 3 positions once it has been cleaned. To start Hopefully no two positions are more than two or three seconds different over a 1 hour period because this is about the most time difference your going to be able to adjust. First start with dial up and dial down and try to get them evenly timed over a one hour period. The adjustment for this is where the hairspring attaches to the balance bridge. Some hairsprings attach to a verticle stud which is adjustable for height via a set screw. Basically the higher the stud height the faster the watch will run in all positions but mainly dial down and pendant up will pick up time more than dial up. The reverse if you lower the stud, dial down and pendant up will lose more time than dial up. The hairspring itself should come off the stud horizontally and parallel with the balance bridge, you just raise or lower the stud to make your adjustment. On some watches the hairspring does not attach to an adjustable stud, so in order to achieve the same results you can lightly press down on the hairspring where it attaches to the bridge to achieve the same results as lowering one with an adjustable stud or gently lift up on the spring to achieve the same result as raising an adjustable stud, BUT be carefull as the hairspring will bend easily and small movements at a time are best practice. Once you have dial up and dial down running evenly (losing time or gaining time the same) then compare that timing to pendant up. The adjustments to get pendant up even with dial up/dial down will be in the regulator pins.For starters the hairspring should always have a tiny bit of clearance between the regulator pins to bounce back and forth (hope your eyes are good), if pendant up is slower than dial up/dial down then move the regulator pin located closest to the balance bridge outward closer to the outer regulator pin, using a fine screw driver to bend the pin . Moving the regulator pins closer together will speed up the watch in all positions but the inside pin will mainly impact Pendant up timing, the ouside pin "furthest from the bridge" will mainly adjust dial up and dial down (evenly). So if dial up and dial down are even but slower than pendant up, move the outside pin closer to the inside pin. Once you have all three positions equally gaining or losing time you can then use the main regulator screw to equally adjust all three positions...... alot to absorb I know, best to practice on a cheep watch, the regulator pins are brass and bend rather easy sometimes and sometimes not.....and you could break one off if you slip and bend it too far.....

Joe, I gotta tell you - I never even considered the heighth of the hairspring stud to be an adjustment. I've always set mine to the bottom of the chamfer (see pics) and never gave it a second thought.

just take note of the hairspring as it coils under the bridge. On some watches it is possible to raise the hairspring stud far enough that the 1st coil of the hairspring could rub on the underside of the bridge, just take a look after you adjust it to make sure you still have clearance. enjoy your time.....

quote:

if pendant up is slower than dial up/dial down then move the regulator pin located closest to the balance bridge outward closer to the outer regulator pin, using a fine screw driver to bend the pin .

This discussion is excellent. Thanks Joseph for your explanation. Above I have extracted a quote from your discussion above. You lost me here. Maybe I'm thinking too literally, but what do you mean by "use a screwdriver to bend the regulator pin?"

if you want to move the regulator pins you need a thin slotted instrument to slide between the pins or between the inner pin and the balance cock. Once the screw driver is between the balance cock and the inner pin you could then gently twist the screwdriver to expand the gap, like wise if you wanted to widen the gap between the pins. Moving the outer pin inward is the easy part. Gentlemen, I caution you, if your hands are not steady, this not the job for you.....

Also, as best as possible try to note how the pins are angled before you start and time your watch in all three positions before you start, take notes and time it again in all three positions after each adjustment you make so you know how the watch is responding, which will allow you to back track if necessary. Also before you start note if both pins are parallel to each other and pointed straight down, or is the inner one tilted outward, or is the outer pin tilted inward so when you make an adjustment you can look at them and try to determine if it moved when you applied pressure. These are very small adjustments and are almost impossible to see at times. Small movements on those pins make big changes.....!

Kudos, I'm impressed Joe. My hat is off to you. Thank You

No problem Eugene, after 20+yrs of owning pocket watches i quickly realized it is unfair to expect a watch repair person to take the time to clean and adjust a watch to keep railroad time and still return it to you for a reasonable price (time is money), and adjusting a watch is very time consuming. In most cases you'll recieve your watch keeping great time for everyday use which is really good enough considering none of us are operating a train lol.Eugene was correct in saying that a watch would take 6 months to get fully adjusted before leaving the factory. These time pieces are such marvels considering I do have 115yr old watches that still keep RR time. I do not clean watches but I have been adjusting watches for 20 yrs and I have definately made it sound easier thatn it is. I have adjusted lesser grade watches to keep great time but the extra $$$$ people paid for higher grade railroad watches also came at a greater expense to each company that made the watch. The RR watches keep better time even though the balance assembly looks the same as a lesser grade watch because the manufacturer paid extra $$$$ to make all the tollerances on each part better, and better materials were used. And for every thousandth of additional tollerance you add in manufacturing adds $$ to the final production cost. hope this helps explain. regards Joe