Anything Missing Here?

OK, Here's where I meant. I've drawn an arrow to the spot. Hope that helps

Bud



Hello, I was hoping someone can tell me if there's something missing from this movement. Nope, this isn't a quiz, I was really asking.

For example, I do know that this movement naturally has a screw missing from the center of the bridge (according the the guide, page 169 it's the 18s 17 jewel movement I believe. Anyway, above where the missing screw hole is, there seems to be a place for something. A jewel seat perhaps? Sorry I don't know all the terminology.

Anyway, here's the movement. I sure hope you can help.

Thank you

Bud

Bud I don't see any screws missing, if I look at the lower part of the watch between the two screws is the pivot for the mainspring barrel, directly above that is the pivot for the center wheel. sometimes depending on the jewel count these are jeweled ditto for the mainspring barrel pivots. Looking at the movement I really don't see anything missing. I attached a picture of my 23j Hampdent New Railway and you can see that the mainspring barrel pivot is jeweled and you can also see that the center wheel pivot is jeweled also.

Thanks a lot Claude, I guess I need to read up some more so I can understand what I'm looking at. It sure looked like something was missing from that spot.

As you can see I've pointed an arrow at the spot just in case I wasn't clear in my post.

Thanks again everyone, what great place this is to learn.

Bud

Bud

Unless they put a jewel in a different place that is not a 17 jewel movement. What your arrow is pointing to is the center wheel & it isn't jeweled but is normally on a 17 jewel movement.

Hey Bud, What they are saying,is that you have a 15 jewel movement,and that where you are pointing is where the center wheel jewel would be if your watch WAS a 17 jewel watch. Your's being a 15 jewel movement is not jeweled in the center. It has just a metal bushing there.

I guess I should add,there doesn't look to be a screw missing on the bridge. That hole is where the pinion for the mainspring arbor comes through.

Hello Cecil;

Ok, but in the guide on page 169 it shows that movement as being 17 jewel and it actually says there is a "missing screw" in bold letters.

Now I'm confused again.

Bud

Bud, I think you have a 16j Railway King (thus no jewel for the center wheel). It is listed on page 171 of my 2009 Shugart's Price Guide. At the bottom of the page, there are also pictures of two 18s Columbus full plate movements. For the Open Face movement, there is a plate screw next to the case screw. For the same movement in Hunting version, there is just the case screw (as in your photo). As for the extra screw hole in the barrel bridge of the movement on page 169, that one has me stumped.

Bud,

The picture the guide is showing has a movement with three holes in the barrel bridge. Usually the barrel bridge is held in with two screws like yours is. For some reason the movement they're showing had to have another hole drilled in the barrel bridge and the prior hole is now useless and missing a screw.

Your watch appears correct to me and doesn't look like it's missing a screw. If you provide the serial # someone can probably provide more information. Does the watch say 17 jewels on it? Sometimes the dial has to be taken off to get an accurate jewel count.

RR

Hey Bud, Don't be confused. The movement in the guide is different from your's. Your movement does not even have a place to put the "missing screw". Bottom line,there does not look to be anything missing from your movement. I have a couple of Columbus and they both look just like your's.

The serial number is (I think) 186873


There is also NO JEWEL count on the movement, anywhere.

Bud

Bud with all these different people saying that nothing appears to be missing, it is a safe bet that your watch is intact. Columbus watch company was purchased and moved and became South Bend watch company. At the time it was sold ~1903 a 17 jewel watch would definitely have been marked, your watch was made early in the 1890's so even at that time a 15-17j would have been a high end watch so yours may be 15 jewels or less and the center wheel would be a normal metal bearing surface, rather than a jewel bearing. I tend to think it is 15 jewels, 7 for the balance mechanism, and 4 sets of 2 jewels =8 but that is not always the case because some companies would have the 7 jewels in the balance mechanism and only have 4 jewels for the pivots but those jewels would all be on the visible area of the watch and on the pillar plate area the would be the typical metal bearing surface. As Forrest Gump would say "Watches are like a box of chocolates, you never know what you get until you open them up?"

Thank you Claude, and now I understand a little more about jewels. This sure is one tough hobby to learn. It seems there are more details to learn about than in any hobby I've ever been involved with.

I actually have no intention of taking watches apart and repairng them as I just don't have the patience or the eyesight for it. All I know is, when I see something I like, I try to do as much research as possible on it and buy it. It's not that I'm a reckless buyer, it's a matter of, I like it, I buy it, end of story.

I suspect I'll buy a lot of pocket watches that aren't the greatest to some of you, bbut will strike me as being perfect, for me.

Thanksw again for all of your help, it continues to be a pleasure to learn from you all.

Bud

Bud no one on here started out as an expert and we all still learn things everyday when it comes to watches. If you have a doubt don't be afraid to ask someone, they can give you tips etc. It is better to get some advice and make the better choices than to make a choice and find that some things are not right. You will find that companies did strange things like produce an 11 jewel movement and all of the visible jewels were on the back plate, so per gear axis they would only have a single jewel and on the pillar plate there would be a metal bearing for the pivot. It would be like having a V8 emblem on the side of the car and unless people opened the hood they would never know it was only a 4 banger.

Bud, Claude is right on, we all start somewhere and usually it is right at the bottom....I know how you feel and believe me, I have felt the same way, and I am, heck, we all are if we see it and like it we all try to buy it....that is only natural....

I suspect we will all buy a lot of watches that aren't perfect, but we all go by our hearts very many times, so don't feel that you are by yourself, you're not....

Regards,

Jerry

On the aspect of what to collect, that depends on what trips your trigger, I like watches that fall in the 1880's-1930's range, I try to pick up low production movements and in many cases that is possible if you are looking at watches in the 15-17j range. I have a mix or brands, Hamilton, Waltham, Illinois, Rockford, South Bend, Hampden, Elgin and even some Trenton/Ingersoll-Trenton but mostly Elgins and Hampdens. Some collectors stick to small watches, 0-12 sizes, the 6s watch you can usually find at a good price and they have some extremely beautiful cases. What you collect, depends on what you like and what your wallet will allow you to spend as a hobby. I think nearly all on here will tell you to buy the most correct watch in the best condition that you can vs a mis-matched watch that might need service, figure on a normal cleaning type service costing somewhere in the range of 85-200 with any extra service (broken staff, cracked jewels) adding to that cost. I don't have an issue with sidewinders (hunter in a open-face case) since over the years and the various gold rushes, the hunter cases have long since been melted away but like your 845, these were very nice high quality movements. There are sites like the Elgin site where you can look at pictures and sales catalogs to see what dials, hands, and type of cases are correct for a movement you are looking at since case styles changed over various decades so a long pendant case with an Elgin grade 571 would be wrong, or a Elgin grade 161 in a later short/no pendant case would be wrong. The biggest areas of mistakes are wrong hands,dials and cases. You will sometimes see an 1895 movement with bid bold hands, or a later Elgin star dial on an watch made in 1900. Whatever direction you choose, enjoy!

Thanks to all of you once again, and Claude, thanks for that very interesting information.

One of the things that really boggle my mind is this. You said, "figure on a normal cleaning type service costing somewhere in the range of 85-200 with any extra service (broken staff, cracked jewels) adding to that cost."

So say I buy a watch on eBay that costs me $125.00 and the guide indicates it's value at $200.00 in ex-fn condition. Now, to get it into top shape it needs a service and cleaning, and a new staff. Now we're looking at putting let's say $175.00 into the watch. This $200.00 watch has now cost me $300.00 (or possibly more), and it's only worth $200.00

If Im into the hobby to collect watches and not worry about money then that's great, but if I want to make a little money at it, it would be really difficulty under this formula, right?

Am I missing something here Claude?

Cheers

Bud

Some people like Dave or Chris or others that do their own service, replacing parts or service is not as much a consideration if you don't repair watches, it is. In your case if the seller says it doesn't run or has a broken staff then the repairs should definitely be a conseration if you want the watch to run. Some watches have not been cleaned in years and you can wind them up and they they will run and keep good time, many of my watches I can't prove when they were last serviced but they run well, since I don't run them much that is ok with me. If I plan to wear them, then I get a COA (clean,oil,adjust) and document it in my records, in my case with the new synthetic oils and normal use this COA will last a decade if not longer. If you look at the watch on ebay or where-ever, if the movement looks clean, it runs, then you may or may not have to consider a COA or repairs in what you pay, but if the seller says the watch runs but stops, add the cost of a COA, if they say it has a broken staff then I know to add about 35-60 dollars to a cost of a COA. I will and have purchase watches that have broken staffs, boken mainsprings, but what I paid I considered the repair costs. Simpy things like cleaning the case you can do yourself, buy yourself a good set of precision screwdrivers, I would purchase a good hand puller also. I will romove the dial, clean it, reinstall it. I take the movement out of the case and clean the case then put the movement back. Replacing the crystal if it is all boogered up is not that difficult and if you search on this board for White's watch crystals you will find that on this board many posts,the crystals are better than top notch and the prices are more than reasonable. The watch below is an Elgin grade 370, 16s, 17j RR watch and I paid about $135 for it, the case was cruddy but it keeps RR time after I ran it and adjusted the regulator. The watch looks 10x better after I cleaned the dial and case, that is what hurt the price on ebay. So you can find good watches at good prices if you look, most RR watch collectors are looking for 21-23J so you can find good RR watches in the 15-19j range if you want to collect RR watches. Again the people on here are more than willing to help if you have a question.

Bud, Claude just saved you and others that will read his(this) post 100's of dollars....

He is exactly correct and if I had known what he just posted a few years ago, I could have saved a bundle also....

Thanks Claude, that is some very good advice for those just starting their hobby and are not watchmakers or have any experience in horology....

BTW, you did a great job cleaning up the Elgin 370, it is a very nice looking watch....

Regards,

Jerry

Thanks Jerry, that brings up another topic making judgement calls on what can and can't be cleaned up. In the case of the 370, even though the dial was dirty and the case was cruddy I did not see any brass on the case and I didn't see any corrosion on the movement. Dave and others have posted tips on how to clean up a dial. Below is a watch that you don't see that often a low production Elgin grade 343 with an A.N. Anderson 24hr dial on it, this gives you an impression if you follow those tips what the improvement will be. I did pay the cost of a good COA since it was a bit hard to find movement, only 1000 made, rare dial and on some but not all railroads this watch could have been used, it is a 17j, 18s,lever set. If you search dial cleaning I am sure if you read though the post you can see the before and after pictures to give you an ideal on what can be done. In the case of the dial that I posted there was no way to do an invisible fix on the missing chips but I was able to use some Titanium White acrylic paint that does a good job of making the defects much less visible.
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