I recently purchased a 23j Vanguard Wind Indicator and was comparing it to the beautiful photos of the watch that 'Watchupdoc' has for auction.
I noticed that his had the Lossier Hairspring and mine had the Diamond Endstone - but neither had both. Some quick research tells me Waltham did not make a Wind Indicator model with both features.
Am I correct? - if so do you know why?

Geoff

I think it is a matter of timing. Diamond endstones were an added feature of the highest-grade movements (American Watch Co., Riverside Maximus and Vanguard) that appears to have been phased out in later years. The Lossier inner-terminal hairspring was an improvement that only appeared later, and it would appear that the two features did not overlap much, if at all, in production.

The watch below may be an exception to the rule. It’s a lever-set Lossier Maximus with two pairs of diamond endstones, and it was manufactured about 1907. For those who don't know, lever-set Lossier Maximus models aren't very common.

A 1915 VanGuard indicator in my collection has the Lossier features with only one pair of diamond endstones (one at each end of the balance), while a 1933 VanGuard indicator has neither the Lossier features, nor any diamond endstones at all.

Apparently, Waltham did make some wind-indicator models with both features, some with only one or the other, and some with neither. I have no idea how the percentages run, nor exactly how the production dates correlate.



====================

Steve Maddox
President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas
IHC Charter Member 49

I am not too surprised by the diamond endstones on the Riverside Maximus grade, as I expect they retained this little bit of frosting longer on this grade than on the Vanguard, although I think the Vanguard also still had diamond endstones in 1907. However, this seems a little early for a Lossier hairspring. Steve, is your Maximus listed as having the Lossier hairspring? If not, does it actually have the inner-terminal coil or did someone just put those winding wheels on it?

Jerry,

The Maximus above actually does have a Lossier hairspring, and if you'll notice, the Maximus "Lossier" wheels are of a slightly different pattern than those used on the VanGuard models. Maximus Lossier wheels have a fine circular ground finish in the area where the writing is, while the wheels on VanGuard models have a much coarser, swirled or rayed finish in that same area. For what it's worth, the serial number on the movement above is: 15,131,507.

As noted above, I also have a 1915 Lossier VanGuard indicator (serial number 20,029,579), and it too has diamond endstones, although only on the balance and not the escape wheel. Of course, I couldn't absolutely swear that they’re original to the movement, but the watch was purchased from a local estate, and I have no reason to believe that it's ever been altered.

Steve's 1915 Vanguard with both Lossier and Diamond End Stones is serial no 20029579. My Vanguard is also 1915 serial no. 20030134 but only with the Diamond End Stones.
Waltham Serial Number information suggests they are both from the same run (20029501 to 20030500) but obviously with different specifications.

Interesting - but is this normal?

Geoff

Geoff,

One thing I failed to mention above is that the various Waltham models with the Lossier inner terminal hairsprings are adjusted to six positions, while those with standard hairsprings are adjusted to only five.

The Maximus above is marked "Adjusted... 6 Pos.," while the 1915 VanGuard that's from the same run as yours, is marked "Adjusted... 6 Positions." If your watch doesn't have the Lossier hairspring, it should be marked "Adjusted... 5 Positions." If not, then perhaps the winding wheels on it have been changed, and it may actually be a Lossier model.

I really don't know how many "Lossier Maximus" models were produced, but I don't think there were very many. Mine is the 7th from its particular run, but I'm not sure that all the watches in that run had the same specifications.

A knowledgeable Maximus collector once told me that in his opinion, the pendant-set Maximus models outnumbered the lever-set ones by a ratio of about 50:1. By "crunching" the numbers, that would mean that about 200 like the one above might potentially exist, but that's just an "educated" guess, until better information is developed.

I'm not sure, but I believe among Maximus models, the lever-set feature goes together with the Lossier and six-position features; in other words, I think all Maximus models that have one of those features, will have the others as well. I also think that all 16s 23j Riverside Maximus models came with two pairs of diamond endstones, but I'm not absolutely certain.

It would probably be helpful if other owners of watches with characteristics similar to the ones above, would reply to this thread as well. It seems like an "educational opportunity" to me, but we'd have to get a lot more numbers!

=========================

For what it's worth, my 23j 16-size Maximus is from the 13-millions and has two pair of diamond cap jewels, is NOT marked as to number of positions and is lever set. Maybe one of our railroad gurus knows when the Lossier hairspring was introduced. It is not listed in my 1909 material catalog but is included in a 1922 material price list. It is often noted that the highest grade movements, such as the Maximus, may have taken many years to sell. Is it possible that Steve's was finished much later than the serial number would indicate?

We still might be able to learn more if we had more examples to study, but from Jerry's reply, it's clear that not all lever-set Maximus models had the Lossier inner terminal hairsprings. It appears that in the early days, only the Lossier models were adjusted to six positions (and so marked), but that characteristic apparently was not linked to the lever-set feature, and ALL later models appear to have been adjusted to 6 positions, even without the Lossier inner terminal hairsprings.

In addition to the 15 million Lossier Maximus mentioned above, I have a 16 million one with the traditional fancy winding wheels. It's a pendant-set type, and it's simply marked "Adjusted," with no mention of the number of positions, exactly like Jerry's 13 million one above. To make matters even more confusing, I also have another VanGuard indicator that's in the 27 million range (1933), and it's marked "Adjusted 6 Positions," but it does NOT have the Lossier hairspring or wheels.

As Jerry suggests, I now suspect there's a distinct possibility that the Lossier Maximus above may have been completed at a date later than its serial number indicates. A careful microscopic examination reveals that the barrel bridge, which bears the "6 Pos." marking, appears to have been refinished at the factory. Although all the numbers match, some of the digits in the serial number (which is beside the "6 Pos." mark), appear to have been "re-touched" with some very fine hand engraving. My guess would be that after the "6 Pos." mark was added, the plate was finished a second time, and the original serial number was left a bit too light.

A similar possibility may exist with the 20 million 6-position VanGuard mentioned above. Like many similar watches, that one has a circular impression around the "6" in "6 Positions," which looks as though it may have been originally marked "5 Positions." It appears that the "5" could have been drilled out and replaced by a "6," which is stamped into a tiny plug that's fitted into the drilled hole. Another 23j VanGuard in my collection with a similar 20 million serial number is clearly marked "5 Positions," without the circular impression around the number "5," and it does NOT have the Lossier inner terminal hairspring or winding wheels.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be much correlation between the serial numbers and the characteristics I've been able to identify so far, and indeed, there may not be any correlation. I think Waltham was one of the companies that "upgraded" existing movements for a small fee, and when those are added to the mix in addition to the "factory upgraded" models, there's no telling what sort of combinations may exist!

I feel a bit like I'm trying to reinvent the wheel here..... I know that I've read something about the "re-marked" VanGuards (and perhaps other Waltham models as well) during the last year or two, but I can't remember the details. Perhaps Kent or Ed will read this stumbling, fumbling saga, and enlighten us with the known facts!

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SM

To throw some more oil on the fire...

WI Ser # 20014013 is not Lossier, but has one set of diamond end stones on the balance wheeland is marked 5 pos. WI 27538xxx has Lossier hair spring but no diamond end stones and is marked 6 pos.

My Maximus is 16538xxx, has two sets diamond end stones (balance wheel and escape wheel), is pendant set, does not have the Lossier spring, and is not marked as to positions.

I would like to respond about a lever-set Maximus, but I don't have one.... (hint-hint)

Marty Carah

My Up/down indicator 23j Vanguard is 19,064,237 with diamond end stones on the balance cock only.
5 Positions, lever set , not marked Lossier. BTW, it looked so good in the HAMILTON #7 case it came to me in, that I left it as is.

Except for a special Bunn Special Steve timed for me, it is the best time keeper I have.

Charlie

Here's another one.

Vanguard 23j WI Lossier Inner hairspring, adjusted 6 positions, no diamond end stones, lever set #25401423.

Charlie

And another 23j up/dn here...1910, diamond end stones on the balance bridge only, no Lossier, marked 5 positions.....and a broken staff!

Serial # 24,570,464 23J Lossier, marked 6 positions. Balance cap jewel is very pale, color seen appears to be from red hole jewel below. Third wheel and center wheel jewels are white or clear. Replacements?

For what it's worth, Serial # 12,509,318, a 23J pendant set Riverside Maximus marked adjusted. Diamond cap jewels on balance and escape wheel.