OK,

I see a lot on Hamiltons and some mention of Hampden Electric Railway watches... but not Illinois.

I landed this Illinois Red Dot... I'm best guessing mid 20's to late 30's... I have a couple 3 and 4 position Illinois watches I could swap dials on.

I am not aware of a PL movement or named run of movements that this should go on.

Am I ok to fit this dial to any Illinois trolley class watch?

Thanks a mil, Paul

Paul,
Ehrhardt and Meggers shows 2 16s Electric Railroad Specials by Illinois. A 17j open face grade 605 adjusted to 3 positions and an adjusted 17j grade 305. Both are model 7 movements. Not sure if this helps you out any but it is a super nice dial.

Best Regards,
Mike

I think I have both of those grades in my Illinois stash.

Do the movements need to be marked electric railway special??? or can they be signed Illinois Watch Company.

Any chance your book gives you a year group? Date range?

From what I gather the movement should have "Electric Railroad Special" on it, circa 1914.
But your dial says "Railway" not "Railroad" so I think it would be fine on any 3 or 4 position Illinois movement.
I may be wrong but, to me, the red dot dial seems to show up around circa 1918....

BR
Mike

Nice dial, but others I've seen, also are marked With the watch company name. IMHO any 17 or higher jewel movement, with 3 or more adjustments would be ok. Hamiltons I've seen are usually 974s.

Thanks, If my memory cells serve me correctly, it's actually the 974 Special for the Hamilton dials.

That data point helps me a lot. There most likely was not a movement marked "railway" It was most likely a "grade". Educated guess at best.

And refresh me on the correct use of "railroad" versus "railway"

Is railroad "long haul" and railway "interurban"?

Paul,
I think Gary was right that most Hamilton were 974's...If you look at Ed Kitners list on the group there are a few 974 Specials listed but most movements listed are just 974's..

quote:

And refresh me on the correct use of "railroad" versus "railway"

Is railroad "long haul" and railway "interurban"?

Here's an interesting article discussing that question, Paul:

http://www.differencebetween.c...lway-and-vs-railroad

What I find interesting is the fact the dial exists at all. I thought Hampden won a court decision reserving exclusive use of 'railway' on ALL watches they made, to the exclusion of all other watch makers. Hampden didn't go out of business until 1929, so they would have been in existance at the time this dial was created, so how did this get by them?

Regards! Mark

Paul
The use of Railroad vs Railway were both used by Major Class 1 Railroads. The ATSF (Santa Fe} was a Railway. It is now known as BNSF Railway one of the largest in the US. Union Pacific is a Railroad. The Street car Lines were Railways. Some Railroads changed their names from Railroad to Railway after a Bankruptcy etc.

This is a great discussion about the general subject of names, and usage. Let us not forget that the "Red Dots" on this particular dial were put there (by Illinois W. Co.) to distinguish the fact that the movement with this dial is NOT a RR Grade adjusted movement. On the other hand there were many large passenger trains on the Eastern Seaboard using huge Electric locomotives. Perhaps (to flavor the discussion) we should distinguish the difference between an "Electric Railway" (urban?) and a "real" Railway, electric or not (interurban?)

quote:

Mark Cross

posted February 05, 2014 13:03



What I find interesting is the fact the dial exists at all. I thought Hampden won a court decision reserving exclusive use of 'railway' on ALL watches they made, to the exclusion of all other watch makers. Hampden didn't go out of business until 1929, so they would have been in existance at the time this dial was created, so how did this get by them?

Regards! Mark

Good point Mark, they won the suit in 1899/1900 I would think they renewed the patent until they went into receivership in 1928.

Here is a previous thread: Electric Railroad Special

The pic, #2565054 is from the Blue book.

My daily-driver work watch is a "Waltham Electric Railway", marked on the Montgomery dial.I think these are kind of scarce, I've only seen one other one like mine.The watch is an 08 model 17J grade 637, a 3 position lever set.I have also seen a 978 Hamilton with their "Electric" marked dial, usually seen on the 974.I think the 974 replaced the 978, which was a little better finished watch. Anyone ever seen an Elgin with a dial marked for trolley service? They had the movements, so you'd think they must have made a dial to compete for this market, although I've never seen or heard of one.That Red Ball Illinois dial is a nice one to have, has to be a rare one!

I have an 'Illinois Central' Grade 204, 16s 17 Jewel. The Dial is signed 'Illinois Central'. I was told there was a run of 1000 in 1917 (Grade 204) that had both the 'RailRoad Special' and the 'Illinois Central'.
The 'RailRoad Special' were made for Will Fredeking and had the standard Illinois markings and the 'Illinois Central' was a Tu-Tone and special markings. Just adding to the Railway question...

My mother grew up in Champaign-Urbana Ill. I was born there but grew up in California. Mom's family was originally from Chicago and is spread out all over from Hoopston to Decatur, Tolono, Peoria, Davenport(quad cities) and where ever else corn will grow.

I saw a couple Illinois Central Watches and commented on them to my mother. I didn't give them much more than PL status. They don't rate special mention like the Penn Rail Road or Santa Fe watches... My mother got real personal and real reminiscent when I mentioned the Illinois Central Watches. I said something like, they must be PL watches because they don't have the same following as RR watches by other names.

She went straight to the internet and started looking up pictures of old Train stops and train stations she used to frequent all over Central Illinois. She found a file photo of a track overpass she remembered hanging out on after school each day, waiting for the steam engine to pass below and play in the fog...

Through her childhood, her parents would buy her a ticket and drop her at the train station to be received by relatives on the other end for a long weekend or even a couple weeks in the summers.

We had a great time floating around in various internet sites and looking at all the track the Illinois Central controlled when she was a kid.

I now own a triple signed HC and a triple signed OF. They are in pretty good if well traveled condition and are in line for COA.

Could it be that with the tremendous magnetism of these huge electric locomotives that had massive rectifiers to create the direct current to the traction motors that drove the axles, that magnetic aberration was a factor in the watches? Steam locomotives were grounded for static electricity.

This has been a lot of fun, Thank you BB for your feedback and suggestions.

This is a Philly Silveroid screw case, very slim and comfortable to carry.

I stumbled in to the wallet card on a random "electric railway" search and had to have it.

Detail of the Union Seal

And the movement. 1923 grade 706 19J adj3p SW-LS.

Still needs final case polishing and movement COA, but I think I'm there on the components.

Really nice watch Paul! I think some people overlook these street railway watches, but they make a nice collector's item, and some can be kind of hard to track down. Regards, Ted.

Hampden did indeed have the copyright to use Railway. I have had a 4 position Illinois 16 size movement with Electric Interurban on the dial but not the movement. I have never seen a red ball like yours Paul and it is certainly a nice dial!