DOES ANYONE KNOWS WHY ILLINOIS PRIVATE LABEL "MARCY'S SPECIAL" WATCHES APARENTLY WORTH MUCH LESS THEN THE BALLS OR HAMILTONS ONES??
http://www.interstatetime.com/PrivateLabels/BallMarcy_Big.htm

http://www.interstatetime.com/PrivateLabels/MarcySpecial_Big.htm

HERE IS MY ILLINOIS MARCY'S SPECIAL AND I WAS WONDERING IF ANYONE CAN SHARE THEIR ONES!
THANK YOU,

dial

....

I FORGOT TO SAY ABOUT MY WATCH.MANUFACTURED YEAR 1887,RAILROAD APPROVED,3D RUN OF 16,ONLY MADE 1500 TOTAL.

ALSO, OF THIS RUN, I UNDERSTOOD ABOUT 100 WERE MARKED "RAILROAD KING"....AND PROBABLY LESS THE 50 "MARCY'S SPECIAL"....

Andrea,
I can only speculate that demand is whats drives the value on these. I too have wondered the same thing about my 18 size hunter Interstate Chronometer..Very few made, fewer found for sale and still only a 3 star watch with lower prices than most??? Supply and demand I guess.. I like your watch as I like "any" Illinois private labels

Ray

Ray,
thank you for your comments,what strucks me the most is that if you own a Ball "Marcy's Special" 17 Jewels or an Hamilton one,prices go well over 1,500.00 since their rarity.Now,I do not understand how the same Private Label watch,but made by Illinois,can honestly worth much less then the other two...For Example,It is like if Ball or Hamilton made the same movement hunter like your Interstate Chronometer(great watch by the way!),but their price is now priced by collectors 10 times more then your Illinois?? ...
I understand demand and choice by collectors..but the suplly is very rare in this case for all the three manufactures..
I would like to see another illinois "Mercy's Special"...

...and here a late 1800's ad by The Webb C. Ball with the first appointed agents for the Official RR standars Watches.. you can see "Marcy & co.Indianapolis,In"

..and a Ball "Mercy's Special" 17 jewels movement.. (image ©interstatetime.com)

and finally an Hamilton "Mercy's Special".. (image ©interstatetime.com)

Andrea, Notwithstanding the possibility that Illinois produced this watch before the "Ball Specials" were even a dream, I must wholeheartedly agree with you about the nonsense of these valuations. The last picture you show of an early s/n 43343 Hamilton 21 Jewel model 937 is another well made case in point. According to "the book" this product of a 400 piece run is a $200+ watch, unless it is also marked "Official Standard" (smells like Ball again) on the movement which multiplies its value by 5 - 7 times. Add to that that little is ever said about these "special issue" pieces, unless they were owned by a president or something!

It is sad that the excellent descriptive system developed by the serious collector-publisher team of Meggers/Erhardt was not refined (as they tried so many times to do) into a valulation system too.

I join Ray and many other collectors to often question the viscitudes of these "collector" prices. My personal opinion is that they have become "traditional" prices for causes no greater than the fact that someone published them.

Many of us question the viscitudes of these "collector" prices, and personally I can only say that they have becopme "traditional" prices for causes no greater than the fact that someone published them.

David,thank you I completely agree with your comments.Also I am looking to find any historical documentation and pictures about this early RR inspector and agent for Webb.C.Ball- Marcy & co. Indianapolis,IN.I understood Webb C Ball started selling RR grade watches in 1893 beeing appointed by The Railroad Officials to establish the timepiece inspection system around 1891.I assume that Marcy & co. were very respectable RR inspectors being chosen by Mr. Ball as one of a few agents at the beginning of his succesfull company.

Ball Ads

Andrea,
Scroll down that page and you will see the earliest known Ball ad dated to June 1890 for his standard Hampden Ball watches. You will note that he is the time inspector for the Lakeshore(?) and other lines prior to the Kipton crash!

In general, Private labels are highly desired by collectors and bring higher prices than the movements not marked as such.

For better or worse, Ball Private labels are much more highly desired. When you consider that there are less than 40 known examples of such watches, it is not that surprising. I think only 4 of them are known to be Marcy's . One of them has a Marcy hamilton dial "switch".

P.S, If Lindell will email me a snailmail address, I will send him the Dec 1890 Brotherhood Journal with the same AD.

Happy hunting,

Bill Kapp

Thanks Bill

Do you know how many Illinois Marcy's Special have been made?I tried to find out but i never had any opportunity to verify it with historical documents of the Illinois watch company.

Andrea,

haven't a clue! Would have been a great question for Bill megger's. I met him a few times. I am not sure who the current Illinois guru's are.

I am a victim of tunnel vision! I research my own stuff to the n'th but just notice the rest in passing.

happy hunting,

Bill Kapp

...Bill,thank you.I am sure it would have been a very interesting question for Mr.Megger..
About my watch this is what i found out, thanks to the Illinois database of Mr.Snyder:
a)serial number 712,711
b)16 run from serial number 711,101 to 1,216,900
c)made 1,500
d)between 1887 and 1894
e)this movement is the 3d run,712,551-713,000.Of this run about 100 were marked "RR KING"
f)"RR King" 15/16 jewels according to Complete Price guide to watches 2008 is Rated one Star from $300.00 up to $700.00
g)Marcy's Special=??

I would love to see any Illinois Marcy's Special serial number to compare them with mine.Unless there is any wrtten documentation from Illinois or Marcy & co. this is the only way to verify how many movements of this run have been made for this prestigious company.

Hopefully some Illinois Collector can help!

Bill,
thanks to Mrs.Stacy,from the Indiana Historical Society,here is a picture dated 1901 that may interest you too.It is of the corner of Illinois and washington Streets and you can see a billboard advertising "Marcy"in the top left corner..

Andrea,

If you don't object, I am going to steal that pic and add it to my website! Love these pics!

Thanks,

Bill

Bill,
no problem at all considering all rights belong to the Indiana Historical Society

Andrea,

Gotcha! I gave credit! The internet ethics are still largely undefined. I take the liberal views that any information on the net is pretty much public.

I added it to my CC Fried and private label pages.

You can see it at the bottom of http://williamkapp.tripod.com/id31.htm

Thanks,

Bill

Bill,

great job!Now you just have to write a book for the pubblic,i think you are doing a great job indeed!As we Italians say :"BRAVISSIMO!!!"

Lindell,

Great pics, I am going to link that thread to my web page collection!

http://members.tripod.com/williamkapp/id32.htm

Happy hunting,

Bill Kapp

Bill,
I have seen in your website your Ball-Hamilton standard superior grade 936.Which is the main difference between my Hamilton Private Label 936 and the Ball?
Thanks

Fantastic Information!!!!!

Nice picture Andrea.
If you look under the sign, you can see a street clock as well. I wonder if that also is advertising for Marcy?
Brian C.

Brian,thank you.Yes,it looks like that!I did not notice it before...Would be nice to have a detailed picture of that sign?.. but I guess it will be very very very hard to get it...

Andrea,

I don't believe there is any difference in construction. Note that Ball's are a tad earlier and are not marked 17 jewels.

There were a total of 87 936 Ball's produced, only 7 are known to survive to date.

Bill,

here we go back to my main question on this topic.How is it possible that Marcy's Special private label on Ball or Hamilton watches worth much more then Illinois ones??I understand market but bookwise they should all be priced the same since their rarity.Price and value(on price guide books) should be made independently by collectors "personal" choices.

Andrea,

The demand side of the equation is a bit whimsical but in the case of Ball, it has almost always been thus!

RR watches, Ball in particular continue to fascinate as the Ball Forum suggests!

Rarity affects the supply but doesn't always affect demand. Lots of rare items are almost totaly ignored.

OTOH, sometimes people aren't aware of different factors of rarity. For instance, Ball & Co marked 938's are much rarer than PL 938 Ball's. Even if everyone knew that, I suspect that the PL's would still be in greater demand!

The good news for the collector is that he/she can do the research and determine for themselves what the true bargains are! But if investment is the main goal, bucking the trend is always risky!

Another factor to keep in mind is that truly rare items rarely come to market! Thus they either slip below the radar or bring astronomical prices when they become available.

Kinda makes the whole thing more fun for people like me who are collectors! I am not selling anything unless I have to!

I wrote a short essay dealing with some aspects of this discussion at: http://williamkapp.tripod.com/id39.htm

regards,

Bill

Bill,
if a truly rare item comes to the market and collectors do not know about it will slips below the radar and lucky the one that buy it cheaply but unfair for the seller..
I agree with you in your discussion,i would just underline in the next complete price guide book the names and rarity of the Private Labels used by the main watchmakers in the late 1800's and early 1900's as Ball,Illinois,Hamilton etc.In this way all the collectors will have full access of knowledge of rairity and then decide what to buy according to their preferences.
Just a tought..