WWT Shows CLICK TO: Join and Support Internet Horology Club 185™ IHC185™ Forums

• Check Out Our... •
• TWO Book Offer! •
Go
New Topic
Find-Or-Search
Notify
Tools
Reply to Post
  
New Model # Hamilton Dial, Or?? "Click" to Login or Register 
IHC Member 1338
posted
What does this look like to you guys?
Came in on a 1948 Hamilton 992B
Hamilton logo, and numerals look SMALLER than a 436 dial, looks like a 1940s 024 military 992B dial with the smaller font and numerals but without marginal minute markers.

Notice the #2, #5, #7, they are shorter and stubbier like the 024 rather than like the 436

It is porcelain enamel single sunk. Am I imagining things, or is this a different dial than the 436 from a later date?




Here's the watch. Movement and case #s match 1948 production, has the blued hands as well. Could this be some kind of later replacement dial they produced, a 1948 dial option, or?? I just don't know but am going to find out.



Tom Dunn...
TIME MACHINE
www.myrailroadwatch.com
.
 
Posts: 3052 | Location: Ramsey, Illinois in the USA | Registered: December 15, 2008
IHC Member 1610
Picture of Harry J. Hyaduck Sr.
posted
Tom I can not answer your question but I can tell you what I know or I think I know. Hamilton started producing this dial in approximately 1918. Hamilton switched over there dials to this design by approximately 1924. During this period Hamilton was using this style dial along with the leftover Hamilton in script dials. This dial would have been used on the lower end Hamilton 17j movements that were still being produced after this dial came out. Do I believe this dial was used on the 992B, no I do not. Can I be wrong absolutely. Did the 992B come with SS dials? Yes. So I think this diad came from another watch movement. It will be interesting to see what the experts have to say.

Harry
 
Posts: 3850 | Location: Georgia in the USA | Registered: September 22, 2011
IHC Member 163
Picture of Mark Cross
posted
This is interesting as my 18s Hamilton 940 single roller from 1901 has this dial, so sometime during its life its original got replaced.

Regards! Mark
 
Posts: 3831 | Location: Estill Springs, Tennessee, USA | Registered: December 02, 2002
IHC Member 1338
posted
Harry; I just dont think it's a 436 dial. The Hamilton logo is MUCH closer to center post, like the 024. Also it is SMALLER, again, like the 024.
And the numerals are not as tall and stubbier like the 024. Just too many things different on this one. I am doubtful it came from the factory on this 992B, just trying to find out what it IS. If anyone has any 974s or 978s with this dial then we would know for SURE. The ones here that I checked all have the earlier script dial or the 436.


Tom Dunn...
TIME MACHINE
www.myrailroadwatch.com
.
 
Posts: 3052 | Location: Ramsey, Illinois in the USA | Registered: December 15, 2008
IHC Member 1610
Picture of Harry J. Hyaduck Sr.
posted
Hi Tom,

No it is not the 436 dial. The 436 dial is double sunk your dial is single sunk. I have many many Hamilton's with the same dial (not this one) but the same style. There is small differences in the dials. What I think is either Hamilton had contracts with more than one dial supplier to supply the same dial but they end up being a little different since they come from different manufacturers or they were made by the same manufacturer at different times much like the movements. Two identical movements on one the serial number will be more shallow and on the other it will be deeper and bolder. I have a lot of 16s Hamiltons and I will look at them but I think most if not all are before 1918. I will let you know what I find out.

Harry
 
Posts: 3850 | Location: Georgia in the USA | Registered: September 22, 2011
IHC Member 1610
Picture of Harry J. Hyaduck Sr.
posted
Tom as I feared I do not have any of the newer dials like this one. One thing you have to remember that Hamilton started switching over to the new Hamilton in block letters in 1918 and did not finish the transition until around 1924. I am not sure but I know all of my 978's had double sunk dials and really the only 17j Hamiltons in this time period would be the 972, maybe the 973, 974,975, 978 and the 956. I have a 972 from the 1921/22 year and it has a Hamilton in script double sunk dial and so does my 996 from the same years. My 978's have double sunk dials and so do a lot of my 974/5's in this time period. The 956 has a lot of dials I have not seen on any other Hamilton's. Your dial looks a lot like the single sunk dials of earlier Hamilton is script dials except yours is in block. I have also seen Hamilton parts dials Hamilton made for their old 4 post dials except they were in block. I have seen both double sunk and single sunk. The single sunk dials look just like yours except they had four post. With the excess of script printed dials and maybe 8 years or so of making the lower grade watches and moving to the 992, 992B's etc... I do not believe Hamilton had a lot of opportunity to use dials like yours so I do not believe they turn up that often. Like you I believe your watch has the wrong dial on it but who knows. Hamilton may have had extra dials they needed to use because by 1948 there had not been a 974/5 etc... made for 20 years I do believe it is a Hamilton dial. If it came with that dial I feel that not many did. I did a search and did find a 992 with that same dial on it. But you know when these watches were everyday tools to keep time i doubt if anyone could care less about keeping them original, they were just tools of the trade back then

Harry
 
Posts: 3850 | Location: Georgia in the USA | Registered: September 22, 2011
IHC Member 1610
Picture of Harry J. Hyaduck Sr.
posted
Tom here is what I was alluding to. Of course this is not the same dial but is an 18s double sunk dial that will illustrate what I was talking about when I said they may have been in different batch runs or more than one vender to make the same dial.

These two dials are the same dial in my opinion however the one on the left the red 5 minute numbers are larger and the black Roman numerals are heavier and the dot under the Roman numerals are rectangular. Where as the dial on the right the red 5 minute markers are smaller and the Roman Numerals are thinner than the dial on the left and the dots under the Roman Numerals are round not rectangular like the dial on the left. I have noticed similar differences on a lot of Hamilton dials that look like they are the same dial.

Harry

 
Posts: 3850 | Location: Georgia in the USA | Registered: September 22, 2011
IHC President
Life Member
Picture of Lindell V. Riddle
posted


FIRST OF 3 POSTINGS IN A ROW RESPONDING TO TOM'S QUESTION...


Harry is correct,

Hamilton began the change-over to a "BLOCK-LETTER" design "HAMILTON" signature beginning in 1918 and it would appear that had been completed by the 1924 time-frame. From my observations and research I believe Tom's dial began production in the 1920’s and continued to be used through 1930s time period. It would have been used only on the lesser-grades, at that time higher-grade pocket watch movements, those considered to be Railroad Grades were shipped with Double-Sunk dials according to Hamilton Sales Literature.

This would hold in nearly every instance until the World-War when they used the Single-Sunk Montgomery-Style NUMBER "024" on Military-Issue 992B movements. And then… Hamilton essentially ran-out of material such as dials and cases during the World-War most particularly the 1942-43 time-frame when in desperation they simply used whatever they could in order to ship whatever watches they could. I have examples of complete, original wartime 992B examples with dials originally intended for other movements and even cases that deviate from what we find in advertising due to that "war-time-shortage" situation.

Harry is also correct that we find somewhat frustrating variations on dials in "thickness" of numerals and minutes-markings as well as in the exact placement of the HAMILTON signature. This was true on all sizes of movements, these are simply production variations and should not be interpreted as being different dial designs. One example... in the immediate post-war period of 1946-48 there are many of the 536 dial with what we refer to as having a "clipped-ten" meaning the lower-right portion of the "10" numeral is clipped-off in printing because the dies used in printing were worn to the point they went slightly beyond the edge of the outer-rim and disappeared into the sunken-area.

I believe the dial Tom asked about to be the number 502
which is shown in the "Hamilton Watch Materials Catalog" with a 1935 publication date, see first of 3 images appearing below which is used to help illustrate these three postings in a row. (Each of these are artist's renderings but they are quite accurate.)

Then be sure to read-on to the next 2 postings I placed directly below this one.

Hope some of this is of help to Tom and others,


DIAL 502 illustration from 1935 Hamilton Watch Materials Catalog...


 
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
IHC President
Life Member
Picture of Lindell V. Riddle
posted


SECOND OF 3 POSTINGS IN A ROW RESPONDING TO TOM'S QUESTION...


Now, take a close look at the image immediately below this posting. That is the BACK COVER of the "Hamilton Time Book" for the 1936 through 1939 period. These handy, pocket-sized books were distributed to Railroad Employees by Hamilton Dealers with their name, address and phone number on the front cover. Inside, ads and spaces for the Railroad Man to enter his time notations and personal information. The back, in this instance shows 2 interesting timepieces. (These are artist's renderings but quite accurate.)

At top in the illustration below, the then-new 992 Elinvar in the also newly-introduced Model 10 Railroad Case. Below that we see the TRAFFIC SPECIAL WITH NUMBER 502 DIAL, THE ONE TOM ASKED ABOUT. Notice the "HAMILTON SIGNATURE IS SMALLER that shown on the 992 Elinvar Dial, and exactly like Tom's example. Tom was puzzled by the smaller signature and by the placement. You can see how the Railroad-Grade Dial is bolder, even to the HAMILTON on that dial. Study the details very carefully!


Back Cover of 1936-39 Hamilton Time Book shows the "502" dial...


 
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
IHC President
Life Member
Picture of Lindell V. Riddle
posted


THIRD OF 3 POSTINGS IN A ROW RESPONDING TO TOM'S QUESTION...


Now, to suggest what would be a correct to replace the lesser, earlier "502" dial on Tom's 1948 vintage 992B we move to advertising issued for the immediate post-war time-time in particular. Advertising in my files from Hamilton for 1946 through 1948 features three Porcelain-Enamel dials. The Double-Sunk 536 and 537 along with the Single-Sunk 080 with the 536 being the most commonly used. (For dial use reference, see page 19 from the Hamilton 1946-47 Full-Line Catalog shown below this posting.)

If Tom's watch were mine I would install one of those three dials. In doing so when re-selling the watch as a complete unit, there would be no hesitation on the part of a prospective buyer as Tom would then be selling a "non-argumentative example" that would agree completely with what is perceived as being "correct" within our hobby.

One might ask why that much older 503 dial was found on Tom's watch... Well, it COULD have been installed to replace a heavily-damaged dial or to pull a dial the former owner wanted to keep and so they installed a lesser dial from their inventory. We see a lot of "mixed-up" watches, seems it will never end, but we do have the information and therefore the ability to make watches "right" before we pass them along to the next owner or simply to fit more properly into our collection.

Your comments and observations are welcome!

Lindell

Wink



Below, from the Hamilton 1946-47 Catalog for reference...


 
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
IHC Member 1338
posted
Thanks Lin for solving the mystery!

YOU ARE RIGHT IT IS A 502 DIAL!

I forgot about the early 1936-39 traffic specials in the unmarked Model 16 cases...this is for sure that dial

SEE BELOW FOR PIC OF A 1936 TRAFFIC SPECIAL
IN A HAMILTON STAR (MODEL 16) CASE WITH THAT VERY SAME DIAL!

Now at least I know what I have. Unfortunately,
to replace with an 080 dial or similiar would be cost prohibitive as the watch here altho nice is by no means a premuim example It has been carried.

SO...I'm going to sell the watch as is where is and state it has a 502 dial on it.

THANK YOU SO MUCH!


Tom Dunn...
TIME MACHINE
www.myrailroadwatch.com
.


 
Posts: 3052 | Location: Ramsey, Illinois in the USA | Registered: December 15, 2008
  Powered by Social Strata  
 


©2002-2023 Internet Horology Club 185™ - Lindell V. Riddle President - All Rights Reserved Worldwide

Internet Horology Club 185™ is the "Family-Friendly" place for Watch and Clock Collectors