Is there any records of how many of these watches were the 20j ones?
Were the 20 jewel 180's all in the first run, and was the first run all 20j.
Thanks for any input on the numbers if that is known ??
I hope this info is not in the database,and I am not reading it correctly.
Bill

Bill only the 1st run contained 20j versions and the movement was upjeweled sometime during the 1st run. With the documented 20j and documented 21j serial numbers you might be looking at the range of 500-700 20 jewel versions. The Elgin master records for the 150 don't show when the movement went from 20 to 21 jewels.

Thanks Claude,
I think we touched on that before, but did not come up with numbers. It is nice to know the 20j variant has so few. I wonder why these relatively scarce watches, do not seem to command a higher price ?
Thanks again,
Bill

Bill that is a difficult question to answer since the grade 150 in its day one of the best movements out there, very well finished, high jewel count etc. I have purchased 3 150's and two I paid $125 for and the other ~$200 and the two least expensive ones were lever set 150's (as the experts call them) but if you really dig into it the lever sets are really 277's. I don't mind if others pass them by since if I can get a nice high quality watch at a bargain I will. If some people want to pay 2 or 3 times that for a watch that was made in 6 digit quantity that is fine also. I need to get a 20j version but they don't pop up that often.

Claude,
I've picked up a couple of 150's, one being the 20j and 1 being 21j, both of mine are pendant set tho, so I am still looking to find the even more elusive lever set ones, and the hunter case 149 ? I have been reading your posts about the lever set ones, makes for some interest, like most things do with the hobby.
Bill

Finding a 20j 149 is about as tough as finding a 20j 150, Elgin switch both of them around the same time. The 149 and 150 have different plate looks so if you like collecting them you should at least get a 21j version is each plate style (Elgin Natl Watch Co is either on the barrel or the main plate) and since the 20j versions did not go past one run they only have one plate style.

Bill & Claude....

Elgin grade 150 were started in 1895 with the first s/n of 6349001 and the run was for 1000 units of which none were marked 21j, so it is assumed that all were of the 20j variety....

That same year 1895 Elgin made the 2nd. run of grade 150 starting with s/n 6362001 and made and additional six runs ending with 6458001 all of which were marked 21j the total for 21j ending up to be approx. 3007 units with the total production of the grade 150 in 1895 at 4007 units....then from 1897 thru 1899 they made an additional 3809 units....

Now, the Grade 277(converted g=150)....

1st. 277 s/n 6362334 was taken from the 3rd run of g=150, 2nd. #6457740 was from run #6 of g=150 and 3rd. #6457876 was from run #7 of g=150....then from 1898 thru 1899 there were an additional 181 units converted from g=150 stock....some, one at a time....

Bill, your question:
Quote:
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I wonder why these relatively scarce watches, do not seem to command a higher price ?
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Unquote:

has no simple answer, but the one answer that comes to my mind is that no one has put in the effort to disect the various top grade Elgin watches as has been done for the Hamilton's, Illinois, Ball, Waltham's etc,etc....

Another reason is that Elgin made so many watches of multiple grades that everyone assumes that the numbers shown in the Schlitt data base are conclusive, which they are not....

Wayne Schlitt has done such a fine job that no one has tried to take his work to a finer level....That's just my opinion though....

Claude has started the discussion of the relationship of the g=150 vs g=277 and even has brought up the g=181....and this is a good thing and I am sure there are other grades of Elgin watches that are in similar relationships, one to the other....

By us here at 185 discussing the various Elgin grades will certainly add to the understanding of the many variations that Elgin created by their production techniques and will only add to the value of some of those grades....

Regards,

Jerry

Jerry is correct, many assume that Elgin movements were made alike and all runs the same. The grade 150 is a bit unique because Elgin made two marketing mistakes with this watch, first they made it 20j when their competitors were making 21 jewel versions, 2nd they made it a pendant set when their competitors were lever sets. At the time the 150 was produced a pendant set was still allowed for RR service but that would change and change fairly rapidly. I have seen photos of a 2nd run lever set that had grade 150 serial numbers. Elgin had to make some changes, the addition of one jewel put them on a level field with the other brands. Next was a lever set full plate 21j 18s. If you look at the master records there is no date on the grade 277 specifications, and there is no proof that the ones that were on the 150 notes that some grade 150's were taken to make 277's were the only 277's ever made, or for that matter that the ones on the list were the first 277's. One could say that Elgin decided they needed a way to convert the 150's as needed to fill orders for RR lever sets once they did that they created a new grade called the 277, if there were 150's in stock and they needed some lever sets, pull the stock and convert what you need until you can come up with a true model 7 21 jewel lever set (grade 181). Some grade 149's were converted to grade 348's, and I was lucky enough to get one of these. If you look at the master records for the 149 you will see the notation. It also appears that even though Elgin allocated 1000 serial numbers it appears only about 500 were made. So if you look at the DMK changes, converted grades, sometimes there are some Elgin watches that are very rare. So Elgins may not be as sexy as some brands but there are some 17j and higher movements that if you do your homework you can pick up at a good price and many don't exist.
I got lucky with my 3rd run (so called 150 LS) and followed that up with another one and I also have a pendant set Elgin grade 370 that is not a franken-watch. I seriously doubt there are many like it since nearly all are lever sets. At best I can tell is that someone was having fun in the engineering department since there is no other grade like the 370 that was pendant set.

Claude,
were these early watches cased or were they cased when purchased ?
I see I also have a 181, a few 349's,a couple of 367's, and 412.
These watches, I think, are all top end watches, and I am sure on a par with most other makes.
Bill

Bill all of the movements that you mentioned were for all matters were cased as you like. I think you might find some of the later grade 4XX movements that were "cased and timed by Elgin". The 349 was either full or some 390 3/4 plates were marked 349 all are very nice watches. I do not have any 349's but I have two 348's. Many would not consider the 412 a RR watch but for some railroads like the Santa Fe and a few of others it could have been used. I was able to picket up a 412 some time back.

Claude,
yes, the 412 being adj to only 3 pos would disallow it on some RR for sure. All of my 349's are full plate, and have really attractive Dsmk.
Another question I have, I am led to believe, and seeing as I have not the ability (read no guts ) to take them apart to check, am told these following watches should all have the stopworks on them, that is the GR. 150 - 252F/T, 180 BWR - 181.
What do you think ?
Bill

Bill here is why I said about the numbers of the 20j version, it shows 6349465 as a 20j and the 6349730 as a 21j version. So you should figure the change-over was somewhere between #465 and #730. On the Stopworks I thought that was for the pre-grade 150 movments and by the time the 150 rolled around the watch companies had improved the mechanisms.

Serial Number SN Range RunQty Name Year grade size code jewels Adj/reg/etc.
-------------- -------- ------ ---- ---- ----- ---- ------ ------ ------------
6349001 6349001 1000 ? 1895 150* 18s ofn5p 20-21j A-A5P
first run of grade 150; 1 of 7816 in grade; 2002 of 21 jewels;
1001 of 21 jewels in 18s;
# is this run all 20j? (not marked "21j");
# SN6349296 said to be "Nameless 20j PS"
# SN6349465 said to be a 20j model
# SN6349899 seen as marked "Nameless 21j Adjusted"
# SN6348643 said to be "149 21j", pic is real blury, but it looks likely to be marked 21j, but not marked 149 ebay 1653254667
# SN6348730 clearly seen as "Nameless 21j Adjusted" on ebay 1697646273

Thanks Claude,
My 150 is 6349029 so is right at the start of the 150's, actually # 29.
That by itself is pretty impressive, at least to me. The ones listed in collections are all somewhat later than that.
Thanks again for all the info on these watches and Elgins in general.
For Elgin's these are the movements that I show that should have stop works, this list is from 1908 back. I do not have the information from 1908 forward & I do not know when Elgin stop using these stop works.
I knew I had seen it somewhere about the stopworks, this is from a posting Tom Brown listed from a 1908 parts cataloque.

Size 18 2-4th Model BWR & Father Time Hunting Lever Set Grades 27. 69. 70, 149, 164, 183
Size 18 Model 1-4 Culver Hunting Lever Set Grades 61, 62
Size 18 5th model BWR & Father Time Open Face Pendant Set Grades 77, 116, 150, 166, 184
Size 18 7th model BWR & Father Time Open Face Lever Set Grades 180, 181, 252, 266, 273, 277
Size 16 1st Model Grade 72
Size 16 2nd Model Grade 91
Size 16 6th Model Grade 156
Size 16 7th Model Grade 162
Size 10 1st Model Francis Rubi
Given this it seems that a lot of these watches would fall into that category of having them, if they have not been removed during their lifetimes.
Thanks again,
Bill

Bill are you sure that is an Elgin parts catalog or just a jewelers parts catalog, I was always under the impression that "stopworks" were originally devised by someone in the market and that it was an "add-on" that could be installed. I think you might ask that question to Dave since I thought it was a add-on and not included on every watch.

I have not been following this topic but since information I posted in another topic is being shown here. The information on the stop works is from Net Pricelist of Materials Manufactured by the Elgin National Watch Co.

It is a hard cover 181 page book by the Elgin National Watch Co. with an introductory letter dated May 1904.

Thanks Tom and Claude,
Tom does that mean that the parts were on these above mentioned watches, or that they could be put on these watches ?
I have to apologize for sometimes sounding a little thick when it comes to these things, and maybe asking questions that I do not really understand, but how else ...
Bill

Bill

While I can't say for certain, I am only going by what Elgin printed in the book. The book has a serial number list of watches they made up to that time & then a class list for each watch. So if you look up a certain watch to buy parts for & you go to the page for the mainspring barrel & look up your watch it will list each part including the stop works if it was one that came with it.

The list I made & you posted here was each watch Elgin listed as having the stop works. Now I can not say if they did or not but just as they list numerous escape wheels but only certain ones fit certain watches I would think if they listed your watch as having the mainspring barrel that required the stop works then more than likely it did.

When I posted the information originally it was so others might check their watches that were in that list. I do know that the Elgin's I own that according to that list should have stop works do have stop works.

I am sure I made this as clear as mud. Since we find errors in information all the time & the fact that I wasn't at the Elgin Watch Co. when these watches were made I can not say for certain they had them, I am only posting what Elgin itself said in 1904.

Tom

Hi Tom, and Claude,
I interpeded the data the same way, that is if listed,they likely had the stop works on them, Unfortunately I do not want or really have the ability to take them apart and check. But as Claude says it could be not that way. I guess I will never know about my watches, until such time as I send them out for cleaning or some such thing.
Claude, you are without a doubt one of the most knowledgeable about the Elgins, and I read and listen to most of your posts in the hope of having at least some amount of knowledge imparted to myself.
Thanks for both of you all the info,
Bill

Bill that is why I thought someone like Dave A. might know better. Everything I could find out about the stopworks was that it prevented the main spring from being fully wound or fully unwound with the logic that the movement would be driven by the center of the mainspring. It was thought it would help with isochronism. I could not find anything that said it was standard on Elgins or if it was an option.