60 Hour Vs Not, 23J Illinois Watches...

Would any one of the Illinois Experts be able to tell me how many of all 23 jewel 16 size Illinois were fitted with the 60 hour mainspring as opposed to not having that feature..Including, Bunn Spec, 163, and Sangamo.......Exact number is not needed, a close approximation would do..

Thanks in advance..
John Pavlik

John, good question, and good that you ask for an approximate answer, because no one would be able to give you an exact answer anyhow, however, that being said, there were approximately 34,000 watches in 23 Jewel made with the sixty hour feature. This figure represents less than 6 tenths of one percent of total Illinois production ( .0059 % ). Not many indeed! How many survive today is another anybody's guess, they however are very sought after in nice condition, with proper dial and case. Most are not original, but some virgin examples do survive. Prices can range from 800 or so for a common piece in average condition to as much as 10-11,000.00 for a near mint solid gold Sangamo Special, Marked 60 Hour with Montgomery Dial, hope this is of help.

Mike

Would that make the 23j 60hr production about one third of the total 23j pieces?

Robert

Thanks Michael, that helps very much..Maybe I missed it, what would be the total 23 jewel 16 size, production be ??

I believe these are the 23J 16 size Illinois watches...

Bunn Special
Sangamo
Sangamo Special
Grade 174, 174-B
Grade 184
Grade 186
Grade 310
Grade 605
Grade 709 (I believe most are actually 21J though)
Grade 710
Grade 770
Grade 810 (Ball-Illinois)

... anyone have a Meggers book or Russ's database handy to check and add the productions of these?

Fred

I believe these are the 23J 16 size Illinois watches...

From the Meggers book...

Bunn Special - 41570 total
Sangamo - 10045 total
Sangamo Special - 7910 total 16 size, 17600 total 17 size
Grade 174 - 20 total
Grade 184 - 24 total
Grade 186 - 90 total
Grade 310 - 40 total
Grade 605 - 200 total
Grade 709 - 60 total (I believe most are actually 21J though)
Grade 710 - 280 total
Grade 770 - 50 total
Grade 809 - 30 total (forgot this one above!)
Grade 810 - 3500 total (Ball-Illinois)

Fred

Thanks very much Fred....So with 34,000, 60 Hours, it appears about a 50/50 split on the 60 hour vs the not..It seems that I read, somewhere, that the 60 hour mainspring was used to improve timekeeping. If that is true, were most models fitted with this improvement after a certain date or serial #........

John Pavlik

John, the latest NON 60 Hour Bunn Special I have recorded in 21 OR 23 Jewels is 4,662,139 which is a Model 9, 21 jewel Bunn Special and in the same run, we find 4,662,223 is a 21 Jewel Type I 60 Hour. Then it gets a little more confusing as the earliest 23 J. 60 Hour Sangamo Special is 4,166,801, the earliest 23 Jewel Bunn Special 60 Hour is 4,492,401 So you can see the 60 Hour watches were put into play at slightly different points in time depending on 21 or 23 jewel, bunn or sangamo but generally speaking everything from 1926 forward is 60 Hour for the Bunns' and Sangamo Specials. I guess if you want an absolute gouge, just say after 4.7 million, EVERY Bunn and Sangamo is 60 hour. Illinois is not exactly straight forward and it takes some deep study to get it memorized, ha!

Thanks Fred, for the help and numbers, I was out of town and late for the reply. .......To give you an interesting tidbit of info, TOTAL 23 Jewel or higher watches in 16, 17 and 18 sizes for Illinois add up to ONLY 103,953 pieces by my addition or only 1.8% of Total Production! The 23 Jewel and higher watches are definitely worth going after in my opinion! They have always been my favorite . Happy 23Jewel Hunting!

Mike,

Excellent information, and exactly what I was looking for..I'm trying to build a small 23 Jewel Illinois collection with an an example from each named grade..and size..

Fred as always, your information and comments are greatly appreciated..

John

John, there are 6,643 12 size , 23 jewel watches also, by my math. Out of the 1,192,995 12 size watches produced by Illinois, this is a small number ( about half of one percent (( 0.0055 )) of 12 size production )and well worth hunting down as well in my opinion. A 410 grade crosshatch is always fun to dig up. Rarer still is a 510. Good luck in filling those squares! Happy 23J. Hunting!