I AM LOOKING AT A NICE LOOKING ELGIN VERITAS 16S 23J MODEL 15 RAILROAD WATCH.
THE INSIDE OF THE CASE BACK READS 10K ROLLED GOLD PLATED - ILLINOIS WATCH CASE CO.

IS THAT NORMAL?

Thanks Lindell - this 23j movement dates to 1921 -
Roddy

If I am reading this right then Lindell, This one was recased at some point.
So do I need to find a new case or does it affect the value that much.
The movement is serviced and works great.
Roddy

I guess that would be up to the owner. The case is not correct and the bow is bent upward quite a bit.

regards,
bb

My thoughts on this other than the bow that appears it might be out of shape the case itself would not cause me any issues. If you look at the Elgin ads in the time frame of this watch the ads still show a longer pendant and yes Elgin did offer a case maked "Veritas" model it was offered but not all Veritas grades were factory cased. The two 23j 16 size Veritas grades would be the 376 and the 453 and these were offered mostly uncased.

If you look at the Elginwatch.org site you can find a 1917 catalog showing the 376 and 375 being offered as movement only. The 453 also was offered movement only and started to factory case in a serious manner after the Veritas 16s had been dropped from the line up and when they went with some version of the 21/23j BWR.

In a 1922 Elgin ad on the same site they show a WI in a longer pendant case and I think the 453/454/455 were the last of the old style Wind Indicators and the later wind indicators such as the 494s a 23j and the last of the 23j along with the 540 since the 57x grade line did not have a 23j version.

If the case is in good shape with no or little brassing and if the bow is not damaged I would not do anything but clean the case up and be happy.

It seems that the legal action that forced case makers to drop the "guaranteed" changed in the very early 1920's (1924 as best I could find) and the Veritas was a very expensive movement and could have sat in inventory at Elgin or the jeweler for some time so the serial number may show 1921 but it would be anyone's guess as to when it was actually sold and cased. This was the last of Elgin's Veritas branded grades, expensive, not many made and it could have lingered past the 1924 lawsuit date. I would expect the dial to be a double sunk dial but the photo looks to be a single sunk, in that time frame the larger spade and poker hands would not have been unheard of and the dial could have been a railroader option because it is a blind man's style font and the Veritas would have met any and all RR requirements at the time. I would look for extra screw marks to indicate if another movement had been installed in the case before the current movement.

A good example of expensive movement/watch enjoying life in the warehouse you can look at the grade 494 that had 5 runs of 1000 all listed as being made in 1933. You will find examples of the 494 that were used in WW2 as bomb timers and such. These were not war effort supplies offered to the Europeans but are marked US Army etc so some were still available after Hitler started invading the various countries in Europe. Many of these were converted from lever sets to pendant sets and if this was to fulfill a army contract Elgin could have easily used a less expensive grades.

Thanks for your informative reply Claude.
The case back has brassing.
The dial is in fact, double sunk. Please excuse my poor photographic skills...

Roddy if you replace it I would probably go with a short to medium stem guaranteed case, probably one that currently housed an Elgin movement. With the Veritas it is a transition time for Elgin, it was dropping the Veritas name, it was starting to go toward factory casing. You had the lawsuit around 1924 that changed how the case makers identified the gold content changing from guaranteed to showing the gold content. A case like the one shown in a 1922 Elgin Father Time which was also brand name dropped along with the Veritas,
http://elginwatches.org/scans/...me:_father_time.html

The 23j Veritas was priced the same as the Hamilton 950 in 1917 and just $6 shy of the 23j Sangamo Special, and would rate as one of the best watches during the 1916-1921 time frame.