This past week I bought a very nice Illinois 12s Grade 410 on eBay. In researching the watch, I was very surprised to see the movement was a hunter configuration, but the watch was factory mounted as an open face without the seconds sub-dial. What follows is the text from the Illinois Blue Book: "The Model 6 movements are configured as hunting style, but have been found cased both as hunting and open-face. The open-face cased Model 6 movements have no seconds hand and require conversion dials with different foot locations." My question is, why not just use an open-face movement if that is the way they intended to case the watch? I'm confused!

This is the marking inside the case. I thought that almost all of the Illinois watches were cased outside of the factory. Is this one of the rare occasions where a pocket watch was factory-cased by Illinois?

This is a shot of the back of the case.

Here is the movement.

That is a work of art that keeps time with a beautiful 6 position adjusted 23 Jewel movement!

Were I to have seen that at the time, with unlimited funds, the lack of a seconds chapter would only add to the simplicity of expression of design. Also, it helped Illinois get rid of excess inventory.

Nice watch Bruce! Only 300 made like that with no seconds bit! Pretty rare I would say.

I show the Star Watch Case Co. was out of Ludungton Michigan.

Tom

Tom, where did you find the info on only 300 having been made? In my Illinois Blue Book they give quantities for Grade 410, but I don't recall seeing anything documenting quantities for this hexagon case model. Would love to see the document. Thanks.

The Meggers-Ehrhardt Illinois book shows for the 12s grade 410 there were two variants made;
1. 12s 23j 6 positions 700 made in 3 runs in 1923 with a double sunk glass enamel or fancy metal dial.

2. 12s 23j 6 positions 300 made in 3 runs between 1921 & 1923 double sunk glass enamel or fancy metal dial with NO SECONDS BIT

Tom

I'll tell you why there is no seconds chapter....that is because it is a hunter movement which would put the seconds chapter at the "3". I think these were very slow selling movements in the hunter arrangement so they removed the seconds wheel and made these open face. To me it would then look very odd, like a hunter movement in a open face case. I was watching that one and got caught sleeping.

That dial will only fit that case with that movement. Very nice watch Bruce.

Steve

Here is mine

I like it without the seconds chapter in that shaped case, I think it would have ruined the look by adding seconds in either the open face or hunter positions. Just my thoughts.

Tom

Bruce,

My serial number is 4395377. Whats yours?

Steve

This is a 12 size grade 410. For Grade 410 the Blue Book has the following info:

ON3P: 1740
HN4P: 140
ON5P: 1400
HN6P: 1300

The early Model 3 and 4 watches were marked "Jeweled Barrel" and the Model 5 and 6 watches were marked "Motor Barrel".

Fairly scarce and high grade pocket watches. I have one or two myself.

Here is a link for more information:

Search results for 410

John III

Here is an open face "410"

Steve

Open face 410

This is a model 3 movement marked "Jewelled Barrel"

quote:

Fairly scarce and high grade pocket watches. I have one or two myself.

John I know you have at east one or had you bought from me on the auction site here.

John

Thanks for the info, I was just quoting what the data base lists, so I have no idea which records are correct. Just for reference it list the following numbers;
ON3P: 740 in 9 runs
HN4P: 140 in 4 runs
ON5P: 2800 in 6 runs
HN6P: Var 1. 700 in 3 runs
Var 2. 300 in 3 runs.

Tom

Steve, my watch is serial number 4,477,670. Does anyone know what "Manheimer" is referring to on the underside of the back cover? Is that the model name of the case, or is that a typical name found on a lot of different Star watch cases?

I did a little checking on "Manheimer". Louis Manheimer was a big watch jobber on Maiden Lane in New York. I think this was a case design they came up with, patented, and had the Star Watch Case Co make up for them.

Here is the patent for the case it is from a Arthur E. Manheimer of Chicago of the Manheimer Watch Company of Chicago.

Tom

Patent text.

Doing some more searching on the case I think Mary Ann is also correct, the symbol in the case back of the pocket watch with MWCo in the center is a trademark of the Manheimer, Louis & Bros. NYC & Manheimer, Louis & Bros., Chicago. I would guess Arthur must be one of the brothers.

Tom

This is from Manufacturing and mercantile resources of Indianapolis, Indiana 1883

Tom,

Thanks for the clarification. I was confused by a typo in your earlier post which said "12s grade 710".

John

Rob,

You are right. I bought one off of you here and another I found on ebay. The watches are very close in serial number.

Here is a link to the Twins

John III

John, sorry about that, I didn't notice my typo until just now when you mentioned it, I went back & fixed it. Didn't mean to add to the confusion.

Tom

So, with all this new information, two questions remain. 1.) Was my Illinois 410 cased at the factory, or was it cased in either NYC or Chicago by the Manheimer Co? 2.) Is it possible that this watch case was used by other companies (Elgin, Waltham, Hamilton, etc.)? Concerning question one, if the watch was cased by Manheimer, did they also produce the custom dial, or would Illinois produce the dial and supply it to Manheimer?

Steve, I also have a Model 3 open face 410, and the serial number is close to yours. Mine is number 4,209,259. The two watches were probably made the same day, or close to it.