We continually hear this mantra emphasizing the importance of condition. Some collectors will barely look at a watch unless it is pristine. I believe that this obsession with condition is the prime factor leading to the accelerating trend in parting out and the spiraling costs of perfect dials, cases and even hands as parts. After all, how many watches are surviving today that are both collectible and pristine in all aspects? Sure, it is nice to have the best example, but it is destructive to the hobby to promote the idea that only a perfect example is worthy of collecting. It used to be that one would keep a type example (perhaps not in the best condition) and trade up as opportunity presented itself. Now they build their own "best" example.

I was looking at the watch I am carrying today - a scarce American watch (specifics are unimportant). The dial is less than perfect and there is a scratch on the movement. Do I sacrifice another all-original (but lesser) watch to get a perfect dial? Do I forego even keeping this example because of the scratch on the movement? The only reason such questions would even arise is because of the current obsessive drive in collecting to have a perfect example. I think it is more important to have genuine examples, in spite of the flaws gained as part of their history. A railroad watch with a worn case or a chipped dial is still a fine watch that served its purpose well. A monogram or inscription just proves that this was a real item, owned by a real person who took care of it for a while before it was passed on to someone else. The imperfect but original components still convey how the watch was issued from the factory or first sold far better than a put-together "perfect" watch will ever do. When we can let go of this idea of insisting on perfection we can start to defeat the destructive trend of parting out - a trend driven solely by consumer demand.

Jerry,

Points well made.. and I do agree with them.. it appears that the obession is no more that a competetion..Society today is very much more competetive that it has been in the past..mostly due to the more effective communcation in the world today...More collectors have seen the "perfect" watch and therefore more people want it..50 years ago not many collectors ever saw a Bunn vareint dial, today it is the holy grail and every collector knows it.. Untill we find a way for correct, but maybe a little flawed watches to become glamorus, it will be a very uphill struggle..I also believe parting affects the RR watches more because of the huge quanity produced and the likly hood that perfect examples still exist.. When was the last Mdl 57 you saw that was unused?? I have a Wm Robinson fusee from 1834 that in my estimation could have only been used no more than a few months..wouldn't run as all the old oil froze all parts.. bought it for 100 dollars..Overpaid as no else wanted it and that was the asking price.. Oldest newest watch I have.. whats it worth?? Probably couldn't get what a marginal Bunn sells for..And it can not be parted out ... Probably only a couple of thousand made by this maker..

Aloha

Bully for you Jerry! My thinking exactly. All my RXR watches are exactly how I received them from the estates of the Railroad workers who owned them. With as much documentation as I can find, as to who what where and when that particular watch saw service.
I also have my Grandfathers 1920 Elgin B.W. Raymond 19J watch that he carried for 43 years as an engineer for Southern Pacific Railroad out of Reno, Nevada and it bares the scar’s of two Train wrecks that my Grandfather was in. these cracks dents and scratches are testaments to the fact that man created and used these time pieces in the course of there life time.
I will service and repair my charges, but will never make cosmetic changes to them.

Aloha Scott

Bravo guys, I know I should probably keep my watches in a safe, however they cannot be enjoyed sitting there in the dark. I built a watch cabinet to hang on the wall, so they can be seen by every one who walks by and loves the mechanics of a fine RR watch. They will be with me and never parted out as long as I live. Phil.

I agree, Jerry, it would be great if all collectors & "investors" valued "originality" from the perspective of considering the actual usage and life of the watch. The reality is, however, that watch collecting, like most things, are market-driven. Supply and demand will control the prices paid. Supply will adjust to meet demand in the marketplace & demand is oftentimes driven by hype and perception.

As a youth, I collected coins from circulation. In the 80s, the ANA & numerous private companies began "grading" coins, a highly subjective practice. This, in part, was due to a demand for authenticty and better pieces by the collecting public. Unfortunately, it was also driven by so-called "investors" that knew little about the true value or collectibility of the coins they were buying. And these companies and coin dealers took advantage of the situation and fed this "condition rarity" frenzy. The resulting collapse in prices surprised no one that had their eyes open.

To an extent, the same thing has occurred in the ballcard market. As children, we collected cards for the name on the card and the joy of ownership. We studied the statistics and held them in our hands. It mattered little that a corner or two might suffer a little wear. We now have cards being graded making almost imperceptible distinctions that drastically affect what some people are willing to pay. Lower grade collectible pieces have fallen in value as the number of collectors have dissipated and the market on those cards are not as easily manipulated to the uninformed.

In my view, the pocket watch field has three primary types of people buying watches in today's world. The first group would include the majority of collectors that belong to CH185 and similar groups. Those folks have a fairly good knowledge base (which varies considerably, myself being toward the low end, I am sure) that collect out of enjoyment, but with a fair knowledge of value, based upon any number of factors. There are many of us that are willing and able to pay extremely high prices for rare/scarce watches &/or parts in top condition; however, IMHO, even knowledgeable collectors need to exercise caution and not be blinded from the forest by the trees. Those purchases are driven by a knowledge base and, if demand continues (the critical component, in my opinion), should be rewarding investments in the long run. As well, many in this group may find satisfaction from the purchase of a well-worn, but less-than-perfect example, which may or may not be in original condition, helping sustain the market on those examples at some lower level.

Another generalized group would be those buying watches strictly as an "investment", without a good knowledge base. This type of buyer, typicially, will want only high-grade examples and will have little knowledge of rarity. It seems to me that this hobby, as of yet, does not include many folks in this category; however, this type of buying will feed the "parting out" of watches. And few is a good thing, moreover, because that type of purchaser will not be in it for the long term and will create false, short-term spikes in the market (see coin collecting).

The last group is the more casual,less informed & sophisticated (whatever that means) buyer that puchases an occasional watch at the flea market or from ebay (more and more, I think). There are many folks that don't know (or care) whether the case is original or if a little brass is showing. These folks sustain the market for the large majority of watches. In reality, the lower end watches are, in many ways, supported by a stronger, healthier market base. I think this fact is oftentimes overlooked by experienced collectors, who may turn their noses up at that railroad watch in a worn, afternarket case with replacement dial. That watch, in all probability, is in the same condition as when it was carried by the original owner. To me, that watch is a true collectors item, just as much as the pristine watch that never saw the light of day.

It seems to me that all collectibles proceed through various price cycles, depending upon factors including supply, demand, rarity, information available, disposable income and, unfortunately, hype. Knowledgeable collectors can and do take advantage of these cycles. This is why, in my opinion, it is critical to the hobby to encourage the infusion of new collectors...whether they collect only the pristine or value the lesser examples... we don't live forever.

Ted

Ted, thank you for those very astute observations, if I could write like that I would be fulgurant. Phil.

Wow, thanks, Phil.
fulgurant - adj : amazingly impressive brilliance or skill; suggestive of the flashing of lightning
Either that or "full of it", I suppose.

How diverse we are! and Oh how I like that!

I can see a Pristine Gem and almost hold my breathe at it's Beauty, and I can see a beat up tired watch and see a Gem too.

I guess I'm still just overwhelmed by the almost spiritual experience of WATCHES in general.

They have a mystery about them that stirs me every time I see one, no matter what they look like.

I have to confess that I do buy a lot of old "parts kind of watches", but only for the purpose of one day being able to get them working again, no matter how bad they look.

I try to buy the ones that have all the parts, but I wouldn't know that anyway, so I get the ones I like.

You can see a watch case I just purchased only because I liked the colors and the design of the case, and it's not even a very nice case!

As far as being perfect, I appreciate a perfect watch, who wouldn't? I just can't afford them.

I love that some can buy the high priced watches and share their finds with me.

I'm glad that there are some that can afford them, and I also love the not so perfect and inexpensive.

To me, it's what makes collecting so great.

Most of my watches are not at all pristine.

Thanks to IHC chapter 185 members I now have some really nice watches that I CAN afford that although not pristine, they are some really fine watches that ebay could never get me.

Thank God that we have ALL grades and conditions here.

That's my take on all this.

Sheila

Your thoughts are beautiful. The world would be a better place if more people thought as you do.

Doug

Beautifully said Sheila. One can appreciate 185 people to sell watches that are not hobbled together. If someone were to post a watch for sell and put pictures out, boys & girls they are looked over with with great care by these experts, and would be slammed in a hurry. I cannot remember when I have enjoyed a hobby so much. Having 185 at your finger tips and all of it's fantastic people is a benefit that hopefully will be shared by more and more. Thanks to all who respond to these posts with such artistry Phil.