I have an 18sz Elgin 15J, "BWR", P/S, Grade 116, Model 5, serial#4974159, circa 1892.

There were 28000 total production and all were marked B.W. Raymond.

Now what I am wondering about is the mechanism under the dial plate.

[1] Is what I am looking at, the way they were all made and look the very same way

Also the serial number under the dial is ;

"h" 4974159

It appears to be an old english style "h"

[2] What is the purpose for the "h"

[3] Lastly since the watch has 2 case screws to secure it properly in a case, I can't quite figure out the purpose of the little projection that hangs over the edge of the dial, that when installed in a case, one must make sure it is compressed against the sidewall of the case for the gears to advance the time

I am not an Elgin guy, I just have this ole watch and thought the mechanism appeared to me to look a bit strange and the "h" is causing me grief and I can't figure out the purpose of the projection that hangs out under the dial.

Just 3 questions, to help me better understand this Elgin, and I appreciate what you can tell me and answer the 3 questions.

There are 3 pictures to assess ;

regards,
bb

Picture 1;

Picture 2;

Picture 3;

Buster-

The watch is a pendant set. The protrusion under the dial is not to keep it in the case, but it to have the case compress it. It is the set spring for the watch and it gets its "spring" when it is put in a case and the tab is compressed.

Jared

Hi Buster!
I dont know what the h is for on the parts,but I have several with the added h, some with an h on all the marked parts, some with one or two marked and the rest not. If memory serves me correctly all of them are from 1880's and 1890's.
Somebody here must know.

Steve

I have always guessed the "h" or other symbols used are some sort of production inspection or process code. I expect that the "Adjusted" grades were hand test fitted and extra carefully adjusted for superior free-spin.

OK guys, and Thanks !!

I thought maybe I had a rare "h"elgin

The "set spring" I find strange and maybe too much "engineering" ??

How long was this exposed "set spring" used that had to be compressed by the case sidewall??

And does this spring have to be compressed for the minute/hours to advance OR for the watch to be set at the stem OR both ??

regards,
bb

Buster-

Without tension, the BW raymond I have like it will only wind. with tension, it will act like a normal pendant set watch.

Thanks,

Jared

OK- Thanks Jared !!

regards,
bb

Buster, this was Elgin's better idea for an "automatic Gizmo" that allowed you to let down the mainspring without having to hold inward pressure on the bench key to keep it engaged to wind instead of set. It turned out to be one "ring-tailed-son-of-a-gun" to get in and out of a watch case.

Thanks David !!

I kinda figured this was "over engineered" !!

New innovations by the companies were their shot at going "one up" on the competition, sometimes they were brilliant and adopted by other companies, and sometimes they faded away or were amended over time

regards,
bb

I have an early Waltham that has the same protrusion on the side that is compressed when in the case properly....

Regards,

Jerry

The function of the protrusion is to automatically disengage the pendant set gear train so to avoid it to drag the movement when it is operating outside the case. This will permit adjusting the timing before casing the movement. This applies only to pendant set watches.
Regards,
Peter

They come in PS 15J, PS 17J unmarked, PS 17J marked as such, and a few 17J LS conversions have been done, but apparently no new grade designation was assigned like in the case of the BWR273. I own so far the only LS in one working unit that I have ever seen, I have seen 1 or 2 more, both incomplete movements. I don't know if you have picked one up or not. But, the 116 door is open, and this will help those with an interest to know more about them. My own speculation on the unmarked 17J, is that these were possibly recalled and upjeweled at the same time and for the same reason that Waltham did with many of their unsold 15J RRG 83s: to sell them after Hampden had gone to 16J & 17J, effectively causing the phase out of the 15J as a RR watch. The SNs pretty well check within the time frame for this to have been the case. the topic of the 116,

above were comments from a friend with a little more insight to this grade.

topic of protrusion, even the 150 has this and that is the way you can tell that a 277 is a converted 150 since even after the lever set conversion the area on the pillar plate is still there. Messing with Elgins so much I have gotten used to this but yes you have to depress it to get it into the case properly.

I also have a 116 lever set so I guess I got lucky. Sometimes even with these "common" Elgins there is enough variations to find a rare one.

Buster on the symbol on the pillar plate the symbol stands for the year/date but on some parts you should see the symbol and a truncated sn on the pillar plate the symbol and the full serial number is present. If you have the watch apart see if you see the symbol and a truncated sn underneath the balance cock or some other part.

Thanks guys for all the help. Now I understand it a whole lot better !!

regards,
bb

Buster for whatever it is worth I seem to recall that "little projection" also being found on some Swiss watches I have seen. Maybe Elgin borrowed from the Swiss or vice versa. An interesting discussion and now I know what that little piece is for! By the way that possible Longines I bought from you has been running for the last 5 days and appears to be a little less than 30 seconds fast. Not bad at all and thanks for a nice watch!

Thanks Deacon !!

I also noticed it was a great timekeeper and that was what triggered me to believe it was much better than just a Swiss generic type watch.

Thanks for the follow-up on it and that you are pleased , and for your assessment on the Elgin "thing-a-ma-jiggy" that allows the watchmaker to time the watch without drag on the train, out of the case. Perhaps Elgin had a better idea and were "user-friendly" to the owner as well as the watchmaker in their endeavors/needs.

I will be putting the Elgin in this topic up for sale this week on our "Horological items For Sale or Trade" venue at a very good price for any one interested. It is a great timekeeper. I currently have 16 items listed for sale there, all at wholesale or very near to it for our members collecting endeavors with price ranges from $65 to $1025, so there is something for everyone's budgets Please scroll thru the listings to find the items that are for sale. Other members have some very good items for sale also, here is the link :

members items for sale or trade

regards,
bb

Picture BWR Dial side: