Collectors of course look for completely original, pristine-condition antique timepieces. But how do collectors feel about putting a good quality movement into a non-original case when the original case has been scrapped, or is worn out, beat up, dented and scratched or just plain ugly-looking?

Watchmakers, jewelers, and gold scrappers have been destroying gold and gold-filled pocket watch cases at an unprecedented rate in recent years. More and more uncased movements are coming up for sale at auctions. Meanwhile, prices for high-quality cases -- both empty ones and cases containing commonplace, run-of-the-mill movements - are going up, up up.

If you had a valuable movement in an old, worn-out, unattractive case,would you re-case it? If you are a collector, would you rather buy an rare movement uncased, or the same movement in a nice, NON-original case?

If I had a Chevelle 1970 454 LS6 with an excellent running all original engine and rip free interior, but the body was rusted out. Would I put "replacement" quarter panels and fenders on, or would I fill the "original" quarter panels and fenders with bondo and patch pieces?

IMHO, to answer your question, recasing is not the end of the world. If you can find a case where the case screw marks line up, even a bigger bonus.

You are right - cases are being melted down at an alarming rate.

I buy movements from 5 goldscrappers. They scrap 2000 watches for 400 in gold and sell me the movements for 50.00. In about 10 years, recasing may be the only option.

I think the main thing is "appropriate" recasing. If one finds the correct style replacement it is no worse than putting new tires on an antique car.

I consider myself fortunate that my interest in the older Ball Hamilton's makes finding correct replacements with matching screw marks relatively easy.

happy hunting,

Dennis is right, the market is adjusting upward to account for higher gold prices.

Gold and gold-filled cases have been selling at prices well below scrap value for years, so a brisk trade has taken place, with some fussing and fretting on the part of certain collectors, who at the same time are unwilling to pay what the gold content of these cases is worth.

So the scrapping continues, and it will not stop until prices of watches in gold and gold-filled cases have risen sufficiently high that it is no longer profitable.

As far as recasing goes, I agree with Bill. I'd prefer original course, but if I can't have that, I have no problem with doing a recase as long as it is correct.

Regarding having the screw marks line up: I'm guessing that this would increase the watch's market value only because prospective buyers might interpret this as evidence that the case is original (which would be incorrect, if watch has been re-cased); or, in the case of a dealer who buys and sells watches to make a profit, he/she might pay more simply on the belief that he/she can find another buyer down the road who will make the same mistaken assumption and pay more. It's an interesting phenomenon. With respect to lining up screw marks, it seems that market value ultimately depends on the likelihood of someone being duped.

I like Bill's idea-- if the case is appropriate to the movement-- if it's a case the owner might have have selected - it's good enough.

If i had an uncased movement that needed a case I think it's really my decision on how I wish to display it since It's mine and I'm the current caretaker of it. Now if I were going to case it strictly for retail and it was a valuable enough movement, I would try to find a correct case for it. In any event, I think most buyers would know if it were recased by extra movement case screw marks etc.

Just another thought on recasing with regard to saving these historical time pieces, using the original case would be appropriate for the factory cased watches to ensure orginality.

Although, for various other movements wouldn't any particular case be suitable as long as it is from the correct period the watch was manufactured in, as alot of these were originally sent to jewelers as movements only and customers selected the case of their choice?

quote:

in the case of a dealer who buys and sells watches to make a profit, he/she might pay more simply on the belief that he/she can find another buyer down the road who will make the same mistaken assumption and pay more. It's an interesting phenomenon. With respect to lining up screw marks, it seems that market value ultimately depends on the likelihood of someone being duped [QUOTE]


As far as the screw marks lining up and possibility of a new owner being duped, I really don't think that would be the case and here's my feeling why. So many watches were sold uncased from the factory so it really became the initial owner or the retailer who determined what the first case was. Then say 50 years later the case is scrapped or worn out, and the watch is recased, if the movements case screws line up with the marks already in the case and the case is correct or of the proper period nobody would really ever know if it was the original or not. So for many (most) watches, we will really never know if its truly original or not unless it's been documented or the original papers are with it.
And on the other hand, early in my collecting days before the internet and ease of getting information I purchased watches where the cases, dials and such were not original to the watch but I purchased them without the knowledge that I have now or the ability to access a site like this one. I might have been duped, or maybe the prior owners made the changes to the watch that they wanted done and by the time it got to me it was we call a Frankenwatch.
Just my opinion, hope it wasn't to longwinded.

Before i hop off of the soap box let me add this, i see too many sellers on the bay selling a nice case for a rather rare watch and hes gonna make a killing on it. Then you scroll down his listing and low and behold, the movement for the case is up for sale in the same auction, and they are both showing premium pricess. To me, that is duping the buyer by not selling him the original case for the watch together. When its done for monetary gain it is usually to decieve.

I am a purist Ray, 30,000 sales and I have NEVER parted out a watch. I beg the scrappers, I tell them I will pay 10% over gold scrap for many brands, they simply do not care. They are even gutting the ladies watches, just for gold filled cases. It is amazing, 20 year cases, 10 year cases, all being melted down. I can sell a simple ladies watch, 1940's elgin for 5.00 each, thats about the price. If the case is gold filled, they get 7.00 for the gold scrap. It is sad but that is life.

It sounds like you are doing everything you can to keep them alive andy and for that i applaud you. At least you are getting the moements to the collectors. As long as these prices continue on, the watch cases will continue to disappear. I will have to start making wooden cases to house these movements.

I am a bit on the fence on this one. If I have a high end watch I want it to be all original or at least be close to that. If that means that I have to have a case that is of the same timeframe but not the original (let's say it is not as brassed up or dinged up) then I might and have swapped cases. Best for the best so to speak. But when it comes to practicality and usability I have taken junky though correct in appearance but wrong in timeframe cases for a movement and used thoses simply because I don't want to waste a really good case on something I am gonna carry and have it get messed up.

As for the sellers that part out the cases I do feel "taken" sometimes and i do hate to see a perfectly good watch that is correct, complete and looking good parted out, but there are times when all I want is a case or movement or movement part (I have and do purchase from one guy that parts watches out from time to time. He took a watch he bought for $150 and sold the case, movement, dial, and hands for $300! That is awesome for him, somewhat bad for the history of the watch. But in the end I might have had a watch that needed a new set of hands and was actually happy to see a set without having to buy a whole new watch. There is a fine balance between making money and preserving history it seems. Without the guys that part out some of these watches how do we get some of our watches back up and running? Like I said I think it is kinda silly of not irresponsible if they are not looking at a price guide to make sure they are not separating a 3 star watch into zero star parts, but I imagine they are gonna do what they feel they need to do.

The original question was how do collectors feel about recasing watches that have lost their original cases or have original, but damaged or worn out cases.

"Resigned" is how I feel. I haven't recased many watches, but I think it is better to recase movements worth saving than to consign them to an uncased movements collection.

For example, I collect Illinois Illinis. I had long wanted to obtain an Illini 23j, of which only about 10 of the original 200 are still known to exist. I had never seen one for sale until a movement came up for sale on eBay. I bought it, and then bought an Illinois A. Lincoln (a much more common watch) for its case, which is period, style, and size-correct for the Illini.

Here is an illustration of the dilema. I bought several watches from a scrapper that I was only interested in keeping from being melted. One of these watches is a Gruen, Semithin, nice gold filled case etc. I could not sell this watch either on ebay, or here, for the scrap value of the GF case. Go figure. Also offered a solid gold case for under scrap. No interest. We have to accept the meltdown, or buy the premelted object. HAVING SAID THAT, I BELIEVE IT IS FINE TO RECASE APPROPRIATELY.

You have two issues, some historical some current. On Apr 25 1980 gold spiked at $895 (more or less the same economic conditions as now)and then it trudged at or below $500 until about 2006. It surpassed the 1980 peak around 2008, 28yrs later. That same $895 in 2010 dollars would range between $2370-$4660 depending on how you want to calculate it, real price, real value, labor value, income value, %gdp etc. Gold has not even gotten to the lowest figure yet ~$1800 currently. I might buy when the slide begins but most people now and most people in the 80's bought high and sold low and took a bath. The ones that avoided the panic buying by jumping out and waited for the panic to end are the ones smiling big time now. The ones that bought on the bubble in the 80's still have not made their money back if you allow for appreciation. Just as a side note most people bought gold during that roughly 2yr span at or around $600 so the range now for that $600 investment is $1590-$3130 depending on the calculation. So those people if they hung onto the gold might be making a profit by simple math but if you took that same $600 and got 4-5% over the same term you probably would be better off since that would have amounted to $2593. ($600 in 1980 @5% interest no additions, 30 year time frame-2010).

The cases are waving bye bye but from a investment point of view, you could wait 2 decades and still never see the upside of your investment.

It is a sad situation since once gone they will never be back but watch collecting is a hobby like others and most do it with a side option as an investment.

I jumped out of watch collecting for nearly 10 years because the prices were on a Mt Everest slope upward then jumped back in when the prices dropped.

Claude, I am waiting for $1550.
In my opinion re casing causes zero stress. Re casing was routine.

Phil I was editing my prior post to show that most people in the 80's bought gold in the 600-700 range and it shows that your $1550 is in the ball park where you would be at a break-even for a $600 purchase in the 80's. The peak during that time some show as $850 and some at $895.

There are many watches that were probably recased that I have that I am not aware of and as long as the case is time correct for the moment I don't have an issue with recasing.

Also I will pick up silveroid case that for the most part can be repaired or made to look good by removing dents, cleaning buffing etc since probably most RR workers had these hard to kill cases because of the fact they were hard to kill. A little work and these old silveroid beasts can be made to look very good.

HI Y'ALL:
FOR SOME OF THE REASONS MENTIONED HERE,I FIND I NEED TO RE-CASE MY 992B. I JUST OBTAINED A HAMILTON MODEL 11 CASE THAT NEEDS HELP. A COMPLETE OVERHAUL WOULD HELP. TRIED THE INTERNET, BUT JUST GOT CONFUSED. ANY HELP YOU FOLKS CAN SUGGEST WOULD BE MUCH APPRECIATED.

Don't know what the problem is Edgar, but any problem with a case, always contact Leon Harris who is our resident watch case guru....

You can reach Leon here: HarrisLJ@msn.com

Here's some additional info you may find interesting....Leon Harris....


Regards,

Jerry

Thanks Jerry.
I tried to e-mail Mr. Harris,but my e-mail came back "REJECTED" If Mr. Harris reads this, please contact me at: 4buttondown@gmail.com
Thanks again to y'all.

I have re cased watches and will continue to do so. However I only do it when I have to. I particularly remember a beautiful model 2 Hampden 16 size 23j SR that I acquired in a damaged and badly worn solid gold case. As a Hampden collector I wanted to keep the watch but the case could not be fixed and I re cased the movement in a pie crust nickel case that was period correct and looked very nice. If a watch is re cased it should if possible be a period correct case. I always remember asking a relative who was a U.P. engineer and watch collector what he thought about re casing and he looked a little puzzled and promptly said "what the **** else would you do, throw away a good watch?"