Does anyone know what unit is represented here?



Thanks in advance!

Stu

Stu,

Is this the watch that John D. had for a while?

If it is it sure is an interesting and large case.

Aaron

I found this picture of a rolex british servive watch used in 1939.Similar markings.
I also went looking for my watch and i have misplaced it, it has similar markings .

We’re all on the right track. A Google search turns up the info that the broadarrow is a royal mark used in Great Britain to denote property of the Crown, and is commonly seen on military equipment including watches.

I hope to find someone out there that knows (or knows how to find out) what unit is represented by “A 716 G.S. Mk. II.”

Aaron this is the one and you’re right about the large case. It’s made of “Cuprel” by Dennison, screw-back-and-bezel, 58 mm in diameter and 21 mm thick, holding a 16-size movement (1921 grade 313 Elgin). John had this watch and another one and did a truly wonderful job with both.

I wish I knew more about its provenance.

Stu

I think G.S. just means "General Service"
like "Jeep" is supposed to derive from G.P.
"General Purpose"
The number 716, we like to include the date so possibly 1916


Ken

You have a General Service Mark II. The number is an issue number, not a date. The specs called for a screw back case. The British Govt. started to use this designation in the 1930's through WWII. The Mark II was made by various makers, including Zenith and Elgin, however, some have no maker name at all.

Best regards,

Greg

The Broad Arrow is on most War Dep't property, it was first used to try and prevent theft from the royal armoury at Woolwich Arsenal. It is said the keeper of the Arsenal of the time William Congreve had a coat of arms incorporating 3 symbolised Crows Feet, He is supposed to have used one of these marks on all the Kings property to try and control,theft and enable proof of ownership.Regards, GED.

For more info on military watches and markings, I highly recommend, A CONCISE GUIDE TO MILITARY TIMEPICES 1880 - 1990, by Z. M. Weslolowski. There are other books which are more in depth for U.S. and German military timepices, but Weslolowski is more general and less expensive.

There is a list of common markings by country as well as examples of various military watches and clocks from around the world. Although the US, Germany, France, etc. etc. are included, the book is especially good for British watches and clocks.

Greg is there any info on this watch's markings in your copy of Weslolowski?

Stu

Hello, Dog.

Yes, as noted the above book has a section devoted to the military watch markings of several nations. The “G.S. MK II”, marking is included in the book. This book permitted me to decipher the markings on my own General Service MK II and other watches.

BTW, I have not actually seen British watches with distinctive unit markings. Only branch of service and type markings, such as RAF Observer, Royal Navy, etc. etc. With this info, for example, you may not be able to tell which air wing used the watch, but you would at least know that it was for a pilot, navigator, etc.

In the event you should find an item of equipment with other distinctive marks, there is THE BROAD ARROW, by Skennerton. With this book, it’s possible to look up unit marks. For example, on a WWII vintage revolver is the marking, “8 BN RTC 282", this stands for 8th Battalion, Royal Tank Corps, Revolver No. 282. From there, it is possible to look up the history of the unit and see where they were during the war. In this example, North Africa w/Monty.

I hope this info is of use.

Best regards,

Greg

Oh yes, I forgot to mention it. Your G.S.MK II would have been issued by the Royal Army. Most likely early in WWII, on an as-needed basis.

My watch has like a part circle with the broad arrow in the circle, underneath it it says, C-12172
Any thoughts as to what this might mean.
Thanks

If the marking is a letter "C" with an upward pointing arrow inside of it then your watch was the property of the Canadian military.

If the mark is a letter "U" with an upward pointing arrow inside of it then it would be South African military.

Best regards,

Greg

"The Mark II was made by various makers, including Zenith and Elgin, however, some have no maker name at all."

Greg does that statement refer to the case or the movement?

(My case is marked Dennison Watch Case Co. LTD; the movement is an Elgin grade 594 (1942).)

Stu

Thanks Greg, my watch is a mystery watch, i guess the guy didn,t want to return it to the forces so he took a dremel and removed the name on the dial, the serial number on the case and the ser number on the movement and some other id on the case.
I guess i will have to tear it down to get some clues, all i know is swiss and 15 jewels?

Stu: With regard to the MK II, I have seen movements and cases unmarked. These have all been mid-grade Swiss. Dennison screw back cases are common with better grade movements. BTW, this is the case company founded by the well known Dennison, who helped found the American watch industry prior to moving to England and starting his watch case factory which still was in business during WWII.

Kevin:

That's unfortunate. I hope the Canadian Govt. won't come to your door and demand it back! At least you know something about it now.

It would appear that in the post-WWII era there was alot of surplus around, including watches. I have seen US ARMY Air Corps watches with the govt data turned off the backs so the watches could be sold as new instead of as army surplus.

Best regards,
Greg

I knew I had a "broad arrow" watch somewhere, but when this topic originally arose, I couldn't manage to locate it. I've now rectified that little problem, and I'm curious to know if anyone can offer any information about it........

As can be seen in the image below, the case back is marked "GS/TP P64273;" it's about 16s, appears to be chrome plated brass, and the back and bezel both "snap" on. The porcelain dial is marked "Helvetia," and the silver plated movement is marked "Helvetia -- Swiss Made" on the ratchet wheel. The barrel bridge is marked "32 A" (presumably the movement model number), and the train bridge is marked "General Watch Co., Switzerland." There's a serial number inside the case back, but nothing more, and the 15 jewel movement is not marked with the number of jewels. I'd guess it to be about 1940s vintage, but that's just a guess.

That's about all I know, but I'm interested in learning more, and any additional insight will be greatly appreciated!

=======================

Steve Maddox
Past President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas
IHC Charter Member 49

Hi Steve, Caught short in 1939 ,War dept' bought watches from many makers and these were marked, GENERAL SERVICE/ TEMPORARY PATTERN, GS/TP.Most were 15jewels and had snap on backs. Hope this helps, Thanks to Greg's advice I just got MILITARY TIMEPIECE book, I was told it's out of print by the way. Regards, GED.

This is a fairly common British military pocket watch of WWII vintage. It would have been issued by the British Army. The "GS" stands for General Service, however, there is some disagreement in my research regarding exactly what the "TP" stands for in GS/TP. One author states TP stands for "Temporary Pattern", another states "Trade Pattern".

Most of the Swiss GSTP's are 15 jewel watches with snap back cases. 15 jewel, Army issue watches in screw back cases tend to be marked GS MKII, although there are some exceptions to be found. It would appear that the British purchased a large number of various Swiss pocket watches, of various brands around 1939/1940 or so. These were in economy-grade chromed-brass, snap-back cases. Some dials are black others white. Since the pre-war specs called for screw-back, nickle cases, these were officially marked "GSTP" OR "GS/TP" to differentiate this economy grade case from the GS MKI OR MK II watches.

Best regards,
Greg

Sorry, GED, looks like I was preparing my response to this question at the same time you were doing yours. BTW, I hope you are enjoying the book.

Best regards,
Greg

Hello Again, Thanks Greg' for recommending book, I love it, Two major internet book stores told me it was out of print and to order it on the second-hand market(used) to colonials. I emailed RITA SHENTON BOOKS and it landed on my doormat the very next morning with invoice with amount to pay,Talk about GOOD Service. REGARDS, GED.

Thanks Greg and Ged!

That's certainly a lot more than I knew before!

Does anyone happen to know what the Brits were doing with all those watches? I'm sure they had some sort of military purpose, but I wouldn't think they'd have issued them to just everyone.

=====================

SM

What were they doing with those watches? That's a good question! The British sold a large number after WWII on the surplus market.

Having checked with some WWII US military vets, only Army Air corps flight crew/pilots and one former combat marine could remember being issued watches. Various former officers said they bought their own.

As for the British Army, it's my understanding that watches were issued to non-commissioned officers and maybe commissioned officers - but I’m not sure of this. Other ranks received them on issue, as needed, such as artillerymen, forward observers, communications men, etc. for such activities as to coordinate a bombardment, assault, etc. Pay books of servicemen mentioned the watches issued along with the issue number of the watch, so the men were accountable for them. Sometimes, British watches will have sold-out-of-service markings (an “S”), which appear to indicate some men purchased their service watches during or prior to leaving military service.

Best regards,
Greg