Throwing away $80 watches. Here's a watch I pulled from the junk pile. Serviced, 20 mins. Now I have

Balance $25
Jewels and screws $20
Plate and setting parts $5
Dial $5
Hands $5
Case $20

My prices when I part out the watch must be crazy because I don't think anyone would pay more than $20 for the watch! And boy, it's a sweet runner.

.

You're right to a point, Frank. I'll give you $25. Let me know where to mail my payment.

She's a pretty thing...but then I have a weakness for Elgins.

HIGH regard! Mark

Frank,
As you may, or may not know, I collect Elgins, and I watch them every day. This is what I have found.
There are a lot of new watch collectors out there, and the watch of choice for the "newbies" is almost always an Elgin.
They have no idea what they are bidding on, and have no understanding of watches yet.
When they finally get more understanding of the watches, I find that this kind of watch finally gets it's due, however, there is another problem.
If more sellers gave more information instead of histories of the watch company, they would sell, or at least do a lot better.

There is NOTHING better to me than seeing an auction that says "Just SERVICED' or "Complete and Running Fine" or something like that, and others do too, I can tell by the auctions I have watched in the past.

Suggestion... Put exactly what you wrote above in the discription! Buyers have no problem when they know what went into the repair of the watch, and it even gives it more credibility.

New watch collectors get "shell shock" when they find out that their watches cost $$$$$ to get them fixed, and back off of collecting.

Having a "Working, Serviced Watch" is like gold to the collector that is a little more seasoned.
It takes time for them to learn, but my experience is, they are learning, and those that are true collectors, eventually "Get It"

Not knowing what is involved in the repair of a vintage masterpiece is a lot of the problem too, but lately, even in other message boards, there are those that are finally understanding what is involved, and are willing to pay for the repair service it takes to get their watches running, or to buy them that way. I see it over and over again.

I would pay a lot more for a watch that is running and serviced too.

Your watch is worth every bit of that and more to me, but I'm an Elgin collector, a lot of seasoned collectors are not.

It took me a long time to figure out, that although I LOVE, what some collectors call, a fine, high end watch, my real passion is still the Elgin, and since I can't pay high dollars for many watches, I can pay a reasonable amount for a working Elgin.
List the service that has gone into the watch, it's appreciated, and it works.

Just my two cents on this subject.....

Mark and Sheila,

I agree with many of your sentiments. Still, my question is, why not sell if for parts for $80? There's negligible horology history here. There were 1,500,000 of these watches made, 1.5million. Thus, it's a great parts watch. I just pulled it out and cleaned it because the balance looked good and I hadn't worked on an Elgin for awhile. The time cleaning it far outweighed the time it would have taken to strip it and throw it in the parts bin. Sheila, I agree, these watches are aesthetic-wonders, little baubles, I like to watch them swing back and forth. Sixty-odd years ago (give or take multiple decades) I purchased a working, clean and what I considered a fascinatingly beautiful Elgin. Only cost me $400! It's listed in Cooksey at somewhere around $50. I still like the watch, I'm still going to keep it, there's more to life than money, but that first pocket watch was a lesson.

Anyways, I'm going to keep the watch or sell it someday. I don't like parting out watches and am against certain practices of it. Let me meditate some and maybe I'll put it up for auction.

Frank "407" Kusumoto

Frank,
You do make a very good point, and many need parts to get their watches running.
After all, what would we do without them?

However, let me make another point.

How about the watches, and watch parts that I'm seeing that are being used for Jewelery, Cafts, and any number of other things?
I believe that those 1,500,000 watches will look pretty small in the next couple of years.

Did you notice that the number of Elgin Pocket Watches has gone from about 1200-1300 to about 800-900 now, with a great number of them being so bad, that they are literly jumk.

Yes, there are still a lot of them out there, but not like it used to be, and I can see the quality going down, with the numbers along with it.

Things like ebay and the net are going to have a huge impact on the availability of watches and even the numbers that still exist. Remember the Jewelry crafters and Crafters in general?

There will come a day that even the most common vintage watch now, will be rare in the future.
We probably won't see it, but it has started in my opinion. of course, that's just my opinion.

Last, I have nothing against selling parts, we need them so very much, however, an almost complete watch, and having the parts for it, go hand in hand, and I for one, commend you for putting them together and making a real GEM in the process.

Now it complete, the way it should be.....and

YOU DID IT! You should be proud.

PS I do also believe that you should do with your items whatever you think best, so it's really up to each and every situation.
If I needed the money for my income, I would also sell the parts. Complicated huh?

Frank,
I feel a little bit baited into an arguement by your post but I doubt we really have any serious disagreements. It is commonly accepted that blatant disrespect for watches will guarantee you a ticket to the nether-world. I don't hold to any particular persuasion but the imagery does fit. Destroying the true efforts of others for personal gain sounds bad because it is. Watchmakers and users and appreciators ascribe to an ethic whose aim is to preserve these things in which we have such great interest.
It's like the first rule of many sciences "Do no harm". Watches have been made by the millions and many do die. Understanding how to respect them is a challenge to myself and us all.
-Cort
<(';')>

Sheila,

Nice discussion and some good observations. One day a 500 year old Elgin may be rare but it might still only be worth $50 (in todays value). Look at the market for early fusee's and keywinds. My observation is maybe yes, maybe no, trying to quess doesn't get us anywhere really. That's just a bit of fun mind games and future trippin'.

About those watch parts being used for jewelry. I've seen where a lot of it comes from. Barrels of unsorted watch detritus. Five gallon buckets of completely unsorted gears, plates, screws, dials, and whatever sold off for "Art". I don't know if that's where it comes from generally but if it's being done for profit, watch parts that have more intrinsic value as watch parts than as "Art" parts, I don't think it's happening much.

Cort,

Glad my scheme to draw you in worked!

We pretty much are in agreement (we can argue about that later). We might want to fight over the adjectives but I don't have my thesaurus. Here's something to bore you with though (let's pull you in further)... There were 16k 7j watches made by South Bend (SB) and 75k 21j watches made by SB. You could cannibalize the balance complete off the 7j watch and use it in the 21j watch. So you can predict what's happened and is happening. The 7j movement is becoming hard to find, especially one with a balance! I only know and track SB watches but I'm sure there are examples in every brand. I don't believe it's going to affect Elgin/Waltham/Hamilton/Illinois very soon or in the same way but I'm not an expert or seer on the dynamics of parting out.

Frank "407" Kusumoto

P.S.- I collect the 7j SB's more actively than the 21j. Might be dumb but it's cheaper.

Frank,
OK, one more....

It is happening all the time! (Jewelry)
and they are using watches off of ebay!
Nice ones. Vintage too!
I first learned about it form my daughter, when she showed me some great watches that were being taken apart by some of her friends to make jewelry.
At the time she had me buying a watch for her off of ebay, and I thought it was great that she had finally taken an interest in a hobby that matched mine. Until she showed me what all of the girls were going to do with them.
Needless to say, I gave her a lesson on what she was actually doing.
This was not a group of 3-4 young ladies, it was a group of 27 ladies, that had nothing but babies and a hobby to think about. A hobby that included buying watches off of ebay and taking them apart and making "projects" out of them.
It was good for a "get away" thing to do, but it was going to ruin a lot of watches.

I stepped in and offered another solution.
I showed them that they could buy brand new parts from different companies for just about anything they wanted to make WITHOUT using vintage and even rare Pocket watches.

Needless to say, they got an education about vintage watches and why it's not a good thing to use them.

They loved the idea of using new parts, and knew no better, because it was "Just a Thing"
to them, and they also liked not having to clean the parts and VARNISH them! can you believe that?!!!! They varnished them! to "preserve" them.

Nope, I didn't believe that people could be so crazy either, but they are!

It may not be an "End Times" thing, but it IS sad.

My daughter says this is happening all over.

Now she teaches others to use new parts too, so maybe we saved a few.

Gee I never had a "Save the Whales" kinda thinking before, but I sure got one when it came to my watches huh?

Sheila,

I believe you. I'm sure you are right. It is sad. I won't even tell you about the five 100 pound buckets of pansies that were sold for scrap.

I have a different viewpoint than you, just that simple. I don't think a lot is lost when another Bulova 10AK movement (millions of them made) bites the dust. Should every Timex ever made be considered a treasure 50 years from now? I really don't think the world would be a better place if every single Gremlin (the car) ever made were still around and running. I don't think the world would be a better place if every Bakelite radio was expertly restored and made to run in working order. If every Philco TV ever made were still working that would be neat but... that would make them alot less cool than they are today. Just taking it to an ad absurdem level, what would it be like if everything that was every made was always preserved? Some things wear out, some things outlive their usefulness for their intended purpose, others get recycled, etc. Yes, it's consumerism, the system got built that way. But the cool thing (to me) is that the collectability of common objects is an unintended but interesting consequence of disposable articles (consumerism).

Now... I'm not condemning or defending a watch being made into a piece of "Art". I'd be alternately amused and shocked if that happened to a Rolex Bubbleback. If it happened to a 7j Hamilton I'd be... apoplectic? When it happens to a 7j Gruen I think I'll just yawn. That's just me Sheila. Thanks for the chance to share my view on an interesting topic.

Frank "407" Kusumoto

What is the difference between parting out a 7 jewel elgin and a 21 jewel hamilton? One may keep a bit better time than the other but it is still a time keeping device isn't it?

I have sereral watches in my collection that are the same as the day I received them. That means nasty case, wrong hands, etc. I keep them that way for two reasons. 1. That is the way I got them in the first place (how do I know if it wasn't some kids only watch and he did everything he could to keep it running or being able to wear it) 2. how do I know if the part I am buying didn't come off of well running watch parted out for profit?

I look at watches like mini cars (time keeping engines) some may be a datsun 510 and some may be a porsche 911 turbo. If they both run, why take them apart to sell the pieces..

Sorry, these are the ramblings of an amature collector how knows not a lot about anything..

Bruce,

Your first question, "What is the difference between parting out a 7 jewel elgin and a 21 jewel hamilton?" is one that has been long debated, is loaded, can be very contentious and is yet certainly worthy of further consideration and discussion.

One difference is how much money you can get from one or the other. Some people do this for a living. They can make a good living by fixing or parting out hi-quality watches. If they are horologists or not is a matter of definition and opinion. If they are serving some service to the horological community is also a matter of definition and opinion.

Another may be, just what are your intentions for parting out that 7j watch? You may be parting it out to restore a 21j watch. Is it worth it to "destroy" a 7j watch to restore a 21j watch? You be the judge. The majority of collectors I know don't have a problem with parting out a common movement to restore a rare or hi-grade movement. It is a common practice. For some the ends justifies the means, at least in some cases. Many of these people also consider themselves horologists.

Some people (who call themselves horologists) say it is wrong to destroy or degrade any horological timepiece for any reason whatsoever. I think their stance is a little "extreme", but I recognize their idealism.

This next comment is certainly not meant to be a facetious point. I've worked with many watches pulled out of boxes, stored there for decades, in bad shape from moisture, dust, rust, etc... so... another of your comments was "I have several watches in my collection that are the same as the day I received them." Some would disagree. Your watches are in fact, to some small degree, degrading every day and unless you keep them regularly serviced you are in fact contributing to their destruction by not maintaining them. If you're interested in owning what is eventually going to become a mass rust that is your business. It's a matter of degree. Do you call yourself a horologist?

There's a "norm" that most people are comfortable with but it is wide ranging and encompasses several issues. Then there's the extreme at both ends.

Frank "407" Kusumoto

Good Points, helps me to think.

Sometimes it's good to stir up what you believe is the "Only Way" and although it may not lead to a change of opinion, it sure gives you a chance to see the picture from all sides though huh?

I respect what I believe to be right, but also respect what others determine is right for them too.

I certainly do understand that not all watches are 21 Jewelers, pristine, and top of the line, and lets face it, a 7 jeweler, is not a 21 jeweler either.

I have purchased 7 jewelers and had them restored just because I liked them, but I don't have to sell it later for a profit or income either.

Your last point to Bruce was a good one too. I have many watches that have been on hold too, but I'm not really doing them any justice by just letting them lay around collecting dust either.

I have stopped buying as many as I had purchased before, for just that reason. I have been getting them listed as to what they need and and which ones to do first, or need attention right away, and that was a good reminder for me.

What's the point of saving them all if I have not finished the ones I have yet?

I'm working on crystals right now, and I must say, I can't wait to start sending them out.

Now if I could just get to the bottom of the all of them. I never realized how many I had until I started putting them in a database!!! Wow!

Restoring is now # 1.

Well, there went Christmas!!!!

I just want to add my 2 cents. Sometimes on this board, there is the tendency to look only at the extremely high grade watches as true collectables. I thought I was imagining this, but I had an interesting thing happen at national this year.

I was wearing my IHC t-shirt on the first day. While walking through the mart, some guy looked at my shirt and said with sarcasm, "IHC 185, huh. You must be one of those high rollers". I just said excuse me. He repeated it. I ensured him that I am a bottom feeder and then asked him what he meant. He said that 185 is the high grade, 23J, Bunn Special board. I assured him that there are other interests. THen his friend chimed in and said that he had monitored the board and thought of joining, but because he collected other than pristine high grade watches that he was likened to a child of a lesser God. Then there was a third guy standing there that chimed in with agreement with the other two. I have also heard these comments in other venues.

I realize that this is a small sampling of people's opinions of chapter 185, but when I thought about it, they might have a point. I can remember a while back that I put up a post about an Ingersoll that I had acquired and asked a question. I got no responses. I bought a very nice British Ingersoll on our auction board from Rob Jones for $5. I was the only bidder. I saw like ones sell in Cleveland for $60. When selling dollar watches, I choose not to use this board. THere is no interest in those items. I sell dollar watches where there is an interest.

My point is that Frank's 7J Elgin is a nice watch and is collectable. There are people out there who would show definite interest in a nice Elgin like that. The fact is that there is little or no interest in this board for watches that are less than pristine and lower grade than 21J. There are actually more collectors out there that are able to spend $80 for a watch than there are those who can spend $3000.

Just my observations and 2 cents.

Tom

Frank,

Sorry I was not clear in post. I have many watches that are the same as the day I bought them.. This means.. same case, same hands, etc.. I regularly clean and maintain my watches.. I just leave them in the "as found or as bought" condition

TOM!,

Wow! Miracles do happen. Serendipidy? I just cleaned a watch for my collection. Rick Kuhn can attest to the fact that he helped me aquire it as something I was going to own. And here it is:

Tom,
I couldn't agree more. I learned a long time ago that Elgin is not a word you use when high dollar watches are the norm.
I'm not saying that they have to become the hot topic of the month, but a few words on a 7 jewel anything watch is not a difficult thing to talk about. SOme will, some won't.
Most of my watches are under $200 and most are less than that, with the exception of my Pansy's, and a couple I found here that I felt strongly about.
I have a huge number of very cheap watches, but they are watches that I love, so they are great for me.
I had so little knowledge of watches that I was buying some great, cheap, private label watches before I knew what they were, and some turned out to be Great Collectable watches too!
However, I purchased them because I LIKED them.

I enjoy a high end watch, but my pockets don't stretch that far, so I mostly get to just look at them.

However talking about my 7 jewel junker would be nice too.

Frank!
What is that? Ingersol?

Pretty much perfect dial. No hairlines. And Bruce, sorry for the misunderstanding.

Sheila,

Yes, it's an Ingersoll-Trenton. I've been exposed as a bottom feeder! I told Fred Hansen that I was a bottom feeder and he said "Well, gotta be something."

And to all who have been participating or (hopefully) will be participating in this thread about a 7 jewel watch, wow and thanks!

Frank "407" Kusumoto

I would say 75 out of 100 collectors own more common and low dollar watches than they do rare pieces..It,s hard for a working man to buy 5,000.00 watches very often if at all.

Samie!,

Show us a picture of your most special 7j or low grade watch. Or just tell us the story. I have a 7j South Bend that is the first watch that I restaffed that I'll keep forever.

Frank "407" Kusumoto

Frank & All,

I think you have hit on an interesting subject.. While I have a few high graders, as I like to call them.. I am just as exited to find things like the pictured example.. it is not American but served the same purpose a few years earlier..I am an English fusee collector mainly and what I have here is a practically unused 7 jewel watch from 1834, according to the hallmarks... It is one of my favorites, not only because of condition, but it was cheap.., about $10.00 more than your 80.. It sat on ebay a few years back for 10 days with out any bids.. It neede a cleaning from sitting so long and it keeps perfect time.. If I have any say in it, it will be one of the last to go when the "time" comes to pass things on to the new generation..I really wondered where it had sat for so long..Hope everyone could show a "low" grader...And YES, I do have the first watch I bought many years ago, but it is a high grade 11 jewel Elgin.. I didn't even have a clue about jeweling, it looked high grade to me....

and the movement shot..

MY FIRST POCKET WATCH

Twenty six years ago after just returning from a 4 year tour in the military I had a few of Uncle Sams dollars burning a hole in my pocket. I went to the mall and there happened to be an antique craft fair set up. I walked over to a table and there she was.
A BEAUTIFUL SHINY GOLD POCKET WATCH that I just had to have.

The ticket on the watch said 15j Elgin and $120 and all I knew was that it was going to be mine. I didn't know a jewel from a crown and the price seemed reasonable to me. The man at the table said it was from around 1904-07 and I really liked old things. The case was shiny, the plates in the back were very ornate and it seemed to run just fine, so home we went. I remember showing my folks and everyone in my family my new aquisition. I was so proud of that new OLD watch.

Well...I still have that old watch and it isn't a 15j Elgin but a 7j Elgin as I found out a few years later. The dial as I look at it now has multiple hairlines. The crystal is plastic (never knew they made plastic ones). There's brassing on the pendant and bow. It's a hunter case and the front cover opens up to to about 120 degrees and I didn't know they were suppose to spring open. But guess what... it's a keeper and sits right next to my "high grade" solid gold fancy ones. I'm so happy that I bought my little 7J Elgin. I may not be on this site today if it weren't for Elgin ser# 11782682

Mike

FRANK

been on the lake this weekend and Just now saw your post i wll try and get some pictures of some i have..

Heya there Samie! I knew you must have a few mutts mixed in with the showhorses!

Frank"407"Kusmoto

Frank
more mutts than showhorses ,these Highgrade watches are now a rich mans game and for sure i am not a rich man..Never thought i would see 40,00.00 paid for a 21 jewel bunn special or 10,00.00 for a 163 it leaves a lot of us on the sidelines , i still buy a nice one ever once in a while but not very often..I can have just as much fun probaly more on the lower dollar and common watches.. in the morning i will post a few of my mutts