I just saw something that seems unusual to me.A dealer just recently sold an 18s Elgin No. 349.This one was a 3/4 plate Veritas model.I thought 349's were all full-plate movements.Was that a prototype? Must be pretty rare.Full-plate 349's are a really nice RR watch, I have one and it's one of my favorites.Anyone else ever seen a 3/4 plate like that?

The Elgin grade 349's were all Full Plate, so it sounds like a "Put Together" watch to me.

I agree that it's a really beautiful watch, I have one and it's a honey.

Theodore, I would agree with Sheila when she says that it sounds like a "Put Together" watch....

There were no "Veritas" 349's that I'm aware of, especially 3/4 plate models....the 349 were either marked '349, Father Time or not marked' Father Time being the most rare....

There were also some B W Raymond, Mdl. 7's made but no Veritas....

Any chance of getting a photo of the watch you are refering to and post it so that we may see it...?

Sheila, that is a very nice looking example of the 349 that you posted....and I agree with you....It is a 'HONEY'....

Regards,
Jerry

Thanks Jerry, I purchased it from Sammie a while back. They are his photos, so I can't take any credit for them.

Theodore, I sure would like to see a photo of your watch. I purchased one that had 2 sets of serial numbers on it, but I still like it a lot because it's unusual that way. I know it was a "married" piece, but sometimes I just have to pick up some weird items.

Nice 349, Shiela...They really are a sharp lokking watch!

Jerry, The 3/4 plate one is on FHwatch.com.The picture is kind of small and it won't enlarge on my computer...I'll try to take a picture of my full-plateone, but I've never had any luck getting pics of watches.I probably don't have the right camera.But will try.Mine is like Shiela's watch, but doesn't have the "5 positions" marking.

Well WOW! He's RIGHT!!!

Check out the serial number on the watch in the FHwatch.com link, 15900689 and it says that some grade 390's are marked 349!!!!!!!!!!!! grade 390 is a 3/4 movement!!!

Take a look!

http://elginwatches.org/cgi-bi...900689&action=search

Also, if you go to the Elgin site and type

N=349 in the search, you will see that grade 239 is also marked 349

and Veritas is in there too!!!

Here is the one Ted mentioned, it is hard to make out but it is marked No. 349 at the top of the movement.

Thanks Ted.

Tom

Thanks Tom And Sheila....that has to be pretty scarce!...Ted.

I am still unconvinced about this one....Boy, I sure wish someone could sharpen the photo that Tom brought into this string....I'll reserve my fnal comments until I can actually read the movement info....

Something is still haywire in guaqamora....

Regards,
Jerry

Here are some additional photos....To my Highly Trained Eye The damaskeening does not match from the bridge plate to the train plate....

What say you...?

Regards,
Jerry

One more, a little closer....

This is nuts, this could be a 349, but then why the plate damaskeening changes? . . .


Search Results For "15900629 v=7"
Serial Number SN Range RunQty Name Year grade size code jewels Adj/reg/etc.
-------------- -------- ------ ---- ---- ----- ---- ------ ------ ------------
15900629 15900001 1000 BWR 1910 390* 18s o3n8l 21j A5P r mb
3629 of 4400 in grade;
# SN15900448 seen as "WI", said to be "BWR A5P 21j" on ebay 219773444
# SN15900728 seen as *not* WI, "BWR A5P 21j" on ebay 260212618
# SN15900461 said to be "BWR" on ebay 1284246108
# SN15900310 seen as WI, "BWR A5P 21j" on ebay 1685045494



Class 91: 18s OF 3/4 lever model 8
240 68000 made 19j A-A5P Marked BWR. REG_ELGIN or REG_RR?
390 4400 made 21j A5P Marked BWR, FT or 349.
412 3600 made 21j A3P

This is verification of what Dave posted above....

From the Elgin Data Base; Search results for s/n "15900689 v=7"

(*) notes on grade 390: Marked: BWR, FT or 349.
# 1915 MC "Grade of Mvt" list implies possible marking: BWR(2)
# seen advertised as BWR in "Bogle Brothers" JC in EWC pg 82
# SN15900448 seen as "WI", said to be "BWR A5P 21j" on ebay 219773444
# SN15644721 said to be marked "349" in the Singer-Ueberall DB

Apparently there more than the subject example that are actually grade 390 movements that are marked '349'....
Since s/n 15644721 is also listed as a grade 390 3/4 plate movement but named '349'....
Go figure.... Why I don't know....

The damaskeening problem makes this one look fishey....but I cannot explain it any further than this....

Regards,
Jerry

Thanks for the answers, folks! I think this is yet another example of what makes watch collecting so infectious...every time you think you've seen them all, something like this 349 shows up.It definately does look legit, but the damaskeening pattern could be a little off, and different from the full plate version.

Another thing, that has what looks like a gold jewel setting on the ratchet wheel.I thought only 19 and 23 J Elgins had the jeweled barrel...

Theodore, it does have the Jewel setting on the Ratchet wheel but it is loaded with a metal bearing. If it were Jeweled you are right, it would have to be the the 23 Jewel. I have only seen a very few 21 Jewel models with Jeweled motors and usually instead of caps on the pallet jewels. Nice trade. I htink I have a "99" Waltham like that and (maybe) an Elgin 16s. I will look while in "recovery" . . . kinda busy right now.

You can see the 3/4 plate #349's on ebay from time to time. I have the normal 390 which is a great movement.

Here is a shot of my grade 390 marked as a BWR

Thanks & welcome, Claude.I'd never heard of a 3/4 plate 349 before.I have the full plate version.They're a really nice looking Elgin RR...Nice B.W. Raymond you have there.I'm also a fairly new member, this is a really great thing to belong to.What a great bunch of people on here.You won't find anything better than this!My hat is off to Mr. Riddle for getting this site going.Thanks again, Ted Brown.

Ted that is why I don't mind posting pictures of my watches or seeing other people post theirs because many times you will see differences and those differences bring up other topics and discussions. Elgin and the other companies did strange marketing practices at times but I am sure the "349" had acquired a good reputation as a good RR watch and when Elgin transitioned from the full plate to the 3/4 plate they probably wanted to use that reputation of the 349 to their selling advantage, or at least that would be my guess. When I lived in Michigan a neighbor and good friend sorta hooked me on pocket watches, at that time I only had my dad's 12 size 15J Elgin. I have the hunter case 348 but no full plate 349 or 3/4 349 both of them I hope to pick up for my collection sometime. The 390 is often overlooked and can be picked up at a decent price.

Thanks Claude.Your explanation makes perfect sense to me....I once had a 390 .I had ordered one from a well-known dealer, but when I recieved it, it was apiece of junk.The plates were so dull,it looked like it had grey primer on them.I was so disgusted, I sent it back.Luckily, they did give me a refund.I'm sorry I never got another one, The price now is probably way out of reach for my limited budget.Back then (late 70's) you could get one for under a hundred bucks.Those days are gone!...Teede.

Ted I think I paid around ~175 for my 390 in a nice case off ebay which was less than average condition for a 390 in Shugart's 2000 price guide. There for about 4 months earlier this year people were disposing of their collections and the glut of watches seemed to drive the prices down so I bought probably more than my fair share. I tend to be a "bottom feeder" trying to pick up the best possible watch and stay under $200, so as a result I don't have any 992's, or Sangamos did pick up an early Bunn special in my price range with the wrong dial (mid-grade dial was installed). I did splurge in the low price tide moment and purchased a Elgin Veritas 453 16 size and an Elgin 17J lace doiley grade 243 hunter.

Claude, I keep thinking that someone needs to invent a time machine so all of us watch nuts can go back in time and fill out our collections!You could buy a top-of-the line railroad watch brand new in the teens for way under a hundred dollars.I always wonder how much used watches went for back then.But, imagine how hard it must have been to pay, say 75.00 or so for a watch.Quite a sum for back then!...Ted

Ted here is a nice link for you in case you ever wonder, so technically $200 or less is still a bargain. http://www.measuringworth.com/calculators/compare/

Let's say in 1970 you looked at a watch for $50 below is what that would equate to in 2008 depending on the method to calculate the current cost (2008 dollars)

In 2008, $50.00 from 1970 is worth:
$277.17 using the Consumer Price Index
$223.06 using the GDP deflator
$301.31 using the value of consumer bundle
$283.18 using the unskilled wage
$468.35 using the nominal GDP per capita
$695.43 using the relative share of GDP