I have just seen a couple of 18s 21J Elgin OF Father Times on the internet.Both are listed as a 349, have regular 349 damaskeening, but have the Father Time name on the barrel plate.These have the "21 Jewels" over on the main plate, like a 349, instead of under the "Father Time".One had "Adjusted 5 Positions" in the same spot where the "21 Jewels" would be on a normal 252 Father Time. I have never seen these before. These were SN's in the 13-14 mil. range.Is this something unusual? The dmsk. pattern matches all the way around.Anyone have one like this ? This is a new one on me!

There could be a couple of reasons for this, Typically Elgin had an open face and a hunter mate and it appears Elgin created the 348 to go with the 349. The last run of the 348 it appears that only 400 were marked 348 and the rest of the run was the completion of the 149 Father Time run. Your Father Time hunter with the xxx,403 serial number tends to confirm this and originally I thought that Elgin may have recycled the barrel plate but it appears those are also serial number stamped so they were probably trashed when they were replaced. If Elgin had a part run of the 149 grade where 400 were marked 348 and 600 were marked Father Time Elgin may have made some barrel plates to match so that you had a 348/349 marked hunter and open face and a Father Time marked open face and hunter. I don't think you would see any 349's marked FT prior to 12M since the last run of the 149s that were partially converted to 348s and finished as Father Times would have been in the 12M range. That would be my guess without any factory notes to go by.

Thanks again Claude! I'm kind of surprised to see this F.T. version still being made up that high in serial number, when they already were making the Veritas model Father Times.Maybe your idea of left over, maybe unfinished,F.T. barrel bridge plates is the key to this.I have a nice No. 349, I don't remember the SN, but I think it's up there, so they must have been using the 349 for both grades.I'd bet they likely had some un-serialized plates made up to use.... Ted.

If you look at the 1903 OY catalog on the elgin site the 239 was $50 and the FT 252 was $40 which in that time was a dramatic price difference. The last RR approved 3/4 plate 18s that Elgin made was around 1919 grade 367. The last full plate that might have made RR service but not universally was the 412, it was 21j but only a3p and the 349 probably was the last of the universally accepted RR full plate grade and it ended around 1910, so I would think they would use up excess parts such as the barrel plates if they existed but the name Father Time itself was a proven brand name so marking some 349s as FT does not surprise me either, good name on a RR approved watch at a much less cost than the 3/4 plate FT grade 367 which came out around 1908-1909. So it was an old proven name on an old proven design at a less cost matched up against a new grade with a proven name at a higher cost.

Thanks Claude, that makes sense.

Ted will have to correct my second post, one of those days you have a brain **** and my pointed it out. The 412 is a 3/4 plate not a full plate, the 353 full plate 17j a3p did come out and might have made a few lines still accepting 17j a3p but that would only have been a few. So the a late serial number 349 probably was the last RR full plate that Elgin produced, after that the price was dropping on watches and Elgin was getting into the swing of the 16 size grades for RR service.

Thanks again Claude.I knew what you meant.Take care, Ted.