Hello everyone,
I have a question regarding this Elgin dial and hands. The dial appears to be a military type dial and the hands are milled out in the center as if to hold a luminous material or perhaps paint?.
Could this be factory or added later ?. The watch is a 19j BW Raymond, 19s grade 240 circa 1909.
Thank you, Ray

The Ghost numbered dial was usually used to fill in the numbers with Radium. The hands have been very cleverly routed out to (evidently) add same. Nice piece, I am glad they don't "glow" now. Who knows when it was done. The factory would have done this just fine. But 100 years ago . . . ?

Thanks David, do you think the dial and hands are factory products ?.

Ray

Not a very good picture, but these are the hands listed for Grade 240. It's part number 2603 in the 1915 Elgin Catalog. Also, the dial is not shown in the 1915 Catalog.

The hands look the same to me, only cut out!

What's interesting about an Elgin 18s B.W. Raymnd grade 240 dial is the feet are located in a slightly different place, being a model 8. Ed Ueberal reminded me of this in a phone call several months ago. So you can't put just any 18s dial on a 240 Raymond. (The 240 dials I've seen are all double sunk with arabic numbers, which is what my 1909 grade 240 has, as well as my 1908.) So somebody went to some trouble to put this military-style dial on. After, looking at my watches, I agree with Sheila that these hands look right, except for the router work.

Sheila, Thank you for the scan, I do believe you are right, looks like a match. Given the rough but precise cut out of the hands it looks non factory too.
John, thank you for the dial information. I did not know the dial feet were different on the 240 grade.

Ray

If you look carefully, BOTH HANDS have "split collars" which are a dead giveaway for swiss-made. Also the minute hand does not resemble either of those Sheila found. It looks sort of "Walthamy".

The routing work is very clean, evidence that an intelligent machinist did it in a pretty well-equipped shop.

Given the propensity for wars during that time all over europe and the rest of the world, I have little doubt this could have been a watch equipped with "contract" military fitments.

Thanks David, I actually located this by accident as it was in a box with two Hamiltons, a model 21 and a model 22 in aluminum shipping tins. I think I purchased them from the same collector years ago so maybe they were part of his "Military" collection of watches.

Thanks again,
Ray

Just a contribution to this thread. Today, I cleaned up a very interesting Illinois with this dial that is marked clearly "R" on the back, and before cleaning, it still had residues of the Radium on the dial numerals . . .

The most interesting part of this is that the dial is on a s/n3503011 21J Burlington Special Movement that was re-scased at some time and obviously "converted" to a "night" watch. A very interesting conversion of a Burlington, clearly the owner didn't care whther or not it was "triple signed", because he was helping win the war with it.

As I remember there was a lot of fuss and bother during WWII about "Civil Defense". We all had our local "Block CD Warden" who made sure we had our house all blacked out when the sirens were wailing which scared my 4 year old bum half out of its wits.

btw the watch "cleaned up" beautifully, and with a little balance spring tweak it started up at 18000.5.

Ray if you found your radium dialed watch with a Ham 21 and 22, maybe the watch was a "deck watch". (you really know how to hurt a guy).

David,
I need to check but I think I have that same dial on a 21 Jewel Burlington but if I remember correctly it is marked Burlington...
The BW Raymond kept time within 36 seconds of the model 21 the other day when I wound them up together. The Raymond ran just over 36 hours. It's a great timekeeper.

Ray

An interesting point Ray, you might want to check that Burlington dial marking. The Burlington dial has completely different dial feet locations than a "normal" Illinois movement due to the swissy lookin plate cuts (I Think). Such a dial would therefore have to have been ordered for the watch, i.e. such a dial change can be considered deliberate by a "vintage" owner rather than a "frankenwatcher".

I checked the Burlington, the numbers are painted a gold color and not radium.

Found an identical dial like mine on a Elgin 23 jewel Veritas..E-bay # 200208452948

Ray

I normally wouldnt reply to such an old post. But the 18s 240 is such a unusual animal I thought best to add to the knowledge of it in this one place.
I am awaiting the arrival of one I picked up on Ebay for $38. It also has the ghost numbers. I cant wait to see it in person as the movement is not a standard 18s movement.

A movement, dial and hands looking for a correct era case. Any information and pictures would help.

Serial #14866976 Y:1910 grade 240 model 8

Double sunk porcelain dial.

The movement is so nice, maybe a display case.