We can start this out as a quiz. This is a 10 size dial. Do you know what it is for?



If you know what it is for, can you guess why I think it is pretty unusual?

I think that I have answers to both questions, but will not jump right in with them. To keep me honest (so I can't just claim to have had the right answer) I will email my answers to Tom while others ponder the puzzle.

Tom, Is this dial attached to an OF 0S movement to give the illusion of a very thin 10S watch?

Tom

I almost disqualified Jerry up front on this one since he is one of maybe four collectors who would know what he was seeing.

Here is a similar watch that is more subtle since there is no seconds bit.



Here is the movement from this one.

Elgin's first high grade watch for ladies was the 10 size Frances Rubie keywind. Over 40 years later they appear to have marked the last run of the Grade 201 and Grade 205 Frances Rubie.

I think these may have all been cased in roughly 10 size open face "Opera Watch" cases.

These would have been to compete with the similar watches from Waltham.

If you do not collect Opera Watches and have not followed them, you may not realize what is unusual about the one I kicked this off with.

If anyone does not realize it, you can click on any of these images to get a larger version.

Here is the Waltham equivalent.

Tom,
Since I know nothing about this, I'm watching to see what comes up. Keep it up please.
I love any information that others share.

This isn't related to your quiz, but I never (really) noticed the seconds dial high above the 6 before either. Interesting.
See what sharing with others brings out!

Another subtle thing to notice is that the Waltham seconds bit almost touches the center post, while on the Elgin, there is a bit of room.

The base movement in the Waltham is a 6/0, while it is an 0 size in the Elgin.

The Waltham shown is the Diamond Maximus, which I think is the top of the "Jewel" series. For years we all thought these watches were marked either Diamond or Maximus in the top grade but a few years ago some of these Diamond Maximus ones showed up. I don't think they are necessarily a higher grade, just an unusual marking. I have only seen the Diamond Maximus mark on Opera watches.

It is also interesting to look at the difference in the casing technique between the Waltham and the Elgin. Check out the screws for the filler ring and the case mounting.

Tom,
WOW! I can really see the case screws so much better, and even though I have seen this before, NEVER like this. Very good example.

I did notice that the seconds dial was very close to the hands opening and wondered if it caused a lot of problems with the dials?

Do you think the Diamond Maximus is a different grade, even though it's not a higher grade? and does it differ in any way from the ones marked Diamond or Maximus?

Wonderful information.

In the Jewel Series movements (6/0) I have not seen one marked only "Maximus". I have seen them marked just with "Diamond" and with both names. Other than the name I am not aware of any difference. I would be interested to hear of any "Maximus" only examples.

Jerry, I don't think I have seen a Jewel Series Maximus either. I was probably confabulating the 0 size and 6/0 size.

The interesting thing to me about the Waltham is where the case screws are. They are near the middle of the dial. I need to take one of these apart, which I have never done. It appears that the dial has 3 female feet. The outer edge of the case is clamped between the filligree piece and the dial.

On the Elgin, it is a relatively simple filler ring that makes the movement wider and the wider expanded movement is screwed in normally.

The dial for the Waltham Opera Watch has three feet that are held in the spacer ring by dial screws from the edge of the spacer. The spacer is somewhat hidden by the filigree piece. The 6/0 movement still retains the unused holes for normal 6/0 dial feet. I will take and post some pictures later this evening (see THIS THREAD).

FILLER RING! I always wondered why there were two sets of screws, and what the movement was sitting in, or on, when I saw one like this. WONDWEFUL!

I had no idea these even existed.

Sure clears up a lot of watches I wondered about while searching smaller ones.

I'm very interested in seeing what you guys post again, and especially about the feet.

Thanks for the clear up about the Diamond and Maximus, sorry I mixed it up. I get it now.

Good info.

Getting back to the Elgin, it turns out that neither Jerry nor I have seen another example with a porcelain enamel dial. I think the dial is pretty special and it implies to me that it was likely on a higher grade watch.

Here is the actual watch.

While it is respectable, it is an unadjusted 15 jewel movement.

The watch itself was an award.



The Bellerive Country Club is in St. Louis and is a Robert Trent Jones signature course. It has hosted the U.S. Open, the PGA and the Senior U.S. Open that was held there last year.

I think it is very likely that this watch originally held a Frances Rubie Grade 205 movement. The final run of both of Elgin's high grade 0 size movements may have been cased in these "Opera" styled cases and engraved Frances Rubie.

Since the Frances Rubie movement has value in its own right and the case has value, I suspect some enterprising watch breaker split them up to increase the pofits on the sale. This probably happened quite a while ago. I bought the watch at auction from a collector's estate.

If anyone has one of the Frances Rubie 0 size movements (16841001 to 16842000) I would love to put this piece back in its original condition.

I also need to find out who won the Bellerive Club Championship in 1914. That one will likely just take a phone call when I get a round tuit.

tom you dog...

you sire are a robber!

on another note, i have a diamond maximus in a small pendant case... 6/0

jeff

Tom, I would not be too quick to change anything. Around this era I think metal dials may have been considered more special than the plain enamel dial. Also, a couple of additions or corrections. Not all Francis Rubies were from the last run of 201/205 movements. A friend of mine has a grade 201 Francis Rubie from the 12,153,001 run (pictured below). Also, not all were cased as 12-size, as I have seen a 16-million example in a wristwatch case that looks original.

As for who copied whom, I am not sure. The serial number of the last run, like yours suggest a date of 1911 (although these could have lain unused and were cased later). Waltham's Opera Watch does not seem to appear until at least 1914 (based on serial numbers) and perhaps as late as 1917. I will have more to say in the Opera Watch thread. In the meantime, here is a comparison of a Francis Rubie Elgin and a Waltham Opera Watch.

The Waltham, using a 6/0 movement rather than an 0-size is thinner. In this picture you can see that the case body and the back and bezel are thicker on the Elgin, although they taper it at the corners to make it seem thin.

Jerry,

I was thinking that the case and dial look like they belong together. The question is whether the watch would have had a higher grade movement.

Most sports award watches seem to be found with lower grade movements, but this particular sports event would have been a very big deal socially in St. Louis at the time. That is the main reason I think it was likely a Grade 205.

The web page on this watch is http://www.awco.org/Elgin/Opera/opera.htm

There are several interesting small Elgins on the website at http://www.awco.org/Elgin/SmallElgins.htm

Tom, one reason I think it likely that the 15-jewel movement is original to your case is that the spacer ring is unadorned. Every Francis Rubie (0-size) pocketwatch that I have seen has an etched (or engraved) spacer.

You said:
I also need to find out who won the Bellerive Club Championship in 1914. That one will likely just take a phone call when I get a round tuit.

Tom,
Walter Hagen won the US Open Championship in 1914 However, the Country Club that is listed is the Midlothian Country Club.

Hagen, Walter, 1892–1969, American golfer, b. Rochester, N.Y. Hagen won the U.S. Open championship in 1914 and again in 1919; he took the British Open title in 1922, 1924, 1928, and 1929. “The Haig,” as he was known to his admirers, also won the U.S. Professional Golfers Association championship five times (1921, 1924–27), the Australian, Canadian, French, and Belgian open tournaments, and many other titles of lesser importance. He played on five Ryder Cup teams.