Given the strict standards for accuracy, how often would railroad workers reset their watches between inspections and what would they set their watches against to keep them more or less synchronized? It seems like +/- 30 second a week could add up pretty quickly.

Thanks,
Dana

Hi Dana,
Spending a "life sentence" on the RR, railroaders would arrive or "report" for duty at the depot. First order of business was to compare your watch with the RR Standard Depot Clock, which was usually a regulator either mechanical or electrical pulsed clock that sometimes had "slave clocks" in different rooms that were wired to the master clock which was usually in the superintendents office.
Standard procedure amongst the railheads[troops] was to "adjust" your timepiece accordingly at the start of your tour of duty. This was usually done by stopping your watch and synchronizing it to the master clock
At any time any official may ask to see your rules and watch certificate and compare your watch to see if you were in compliance. And if not, you may be subject to being pulled from service without pay until you were in compliance.
Generally speaking you were due in for watch inspection and certification of same once a year, but all branches had different rules sent down from the respective superintendent[s].
Also back then, 95% of the watches carried, would be very well timed and there was no problems to warrant being pulled from service. The watch was part of your tools or uniform and you went no where without it. Along about 1967 most of the lines started allowing wristwatches and railroaders were very quick to trade in or throw their old pocket watch in the drawer and grab one of the new RR approved wristies
I hope this answers your questions, as its a true account first hand of an ole RR hand
Also and lastly when you traded in your pocket watch or sold it to someone who wanted it, or pawned it, it would bring $20-30 max
Regards,
bb

Buster, that certainly answered my question. Were you working in the pocket watch days and, if so, did you happily make that wrist watch transition?

Dana

Yes, I hired on in 1966 and retired in 2007. I gladly traded in my 992B for a new Ball Trainmaster wristie. It was a very good watch and never gave me a minutes[pardon the pun] trouble. Most of the other railheads got the Accutrons and were always having trouble with them just stopping unexplainingly
regards,
bb

Buster,

Without a hacking feature on most lever set watches, how did you synchonize your watch?

Steve

Buster, Great information, thanks for sharing!

Mike

Steve,
They had to be lever~set, as you know and a "hack" feature would not have been acceptable
The common method was to stop the watch by impeding the seconds hand which explains what we see today, of mismatched seconds hands as many were broken or fly off into "cyber~space"
Another method was to stop the balance which accounted for many broken staffs, as you can imagine as most railheads were not too gentle of persons being brawny and strapping figures who were not used to working delicately with fine instrumentation
Michael,
You are quite welcome and I am glad to relate first hand knowledge of the working mans portrairol
regards,
bb

http://www.sessions-station.co...Punctuality%20a.html

It has always been my understanding that they were never supposed to reset their pocket watches, but only to observe any differences between their time and the master clock. They then were to refer those differences to the watch inspector. It was the inspector who did the setting of the pocket watches.

I can see sychronizing a wrist watch to the master clock, but that's how I always understood it to be with pocket watches. Even Webb C. Ball complained in recorded minutes of annual meetings of his inspectors about men re-setting their watches between inspections.

Have I misunderstood that all these years?

As you can see by the amount of coal dust built up in the office of the photo above (a familiar experience in a railroad town, let me tell you!!), the LAST thing I'd want to do is to open up a watch case in THIS situation and expose the movement to THAT atmosphere!

Regards! Mark

Hi Mark,
I don't think you have misunderstood all these years, only misinformed
"Observing & refering" was what you were supposed to do. However it had no purpose in the real world of railroading from the men who manned the equipment
It was just a small problem and us railheads were always looking for a way around or out of the too many "rules" we had to adhere to[ie loopholes] We were notorious for doing things "our way", and I saw many things that even I wouldn't do back then, but many did
We were a rough and tough bunch that didn't take a lot off anyone, and certainly had a big smile and joke when we were able to pull one off on the management, as it was a highlight of our dismal existence of always being tired, wet, hungry, underpaid, exploited, mad or just wishing we didn't have to spend 60% of our life away from our families & friends
As far back as you can see, even old WC Ball was "unhappy" with us, but why
Maybe because he was a watch inspector and resetting your watch[as you can now see was happening] wasn't bringing in the 50c or greenback that he wanted and why he was in the business I say, great, "we" pulled another one off even from the old days. And it continued to happen, Mark
regards,
bb

Oh, I know all about railroad men, my friend. I come from a railroad family...my Dad was the last to leave the N&W for a job with Goodyear Atomic when it opened, so I grew up around railroaders all my life.

I almost became one myself, but could see the writing on the wall even then, as those who DID get hired at the time I would have all got laid off within a year, and were never recalled to duty after that.

That said, I just don't recall any of them ever doing what you did with their watches...but as you also said, every road had it's own rules and practices, so it could just be what I have been accustomed to was totally different on your road. I even recall hearing about my great grandfather's practice of stopping daily by his watch inspector (Jarvis Jewelers) on his way to work (he was the chief engine inspector at the Portsmouth Yards for years) to check his watch to their master clock, and have it re-set if required by the watch inspector. Jarvis was located right across the street from the coal hump and roundhouse, and directly in front of the old railroad YMCA. Talk about location/location/location!

Thanks!

Regards !Mark

Mark,
Sounds like "great grandfather" was in management or just right under it. We were just workers that resented management somewhat and being from the South, we were rebels, to a cause, if you will
I can only speak from true life experience[s] and for the most part reality is what it is. "Rules Compliance" from the 60's thru the 80's was NOT a condition of employment Why we even had "job insurance" policies that paid us for lost time if we were fired and sometimes for more than the daily pay scale Whenever a "incident" happened such as running thru a switch or derailing or turning a boxcar upside down happened, there were about 4-5 men on that crew that wanted to assume responsibility for the accident Why?? Because you would be fired for 15-30-60 days and with job insurance it was a "PAID VACATION" And management only had to have one employee to have to blame the accident on that the superintendent required
In later years job insurance became less important as, if you were found to be out of "rules compliance", then the insurance companies wouldn't pay the claim And as it evolved today, being in rules compliance is a condition of remaining in employment as the firing for 15-30-60 days and being reinstated,is passe, and could very well lead to being fired permanetely without recourses as unions have become weaker since Jimmy Hoffa came up missing
And here we sit, from the South, still a rebel, but for a cause
regards,
bb

Finding ways to get around rules and regulations is a time honored tradition. I can see how these guys could sync their watches at one particular location but what would happen as they traveled along the line? How then were station clocks from town to town kept at the same time?

Dana

Dana,
A very good and intelligent observation I would say you may be in an investigative line of employment
There was a person or "timekeeper" in charge of calling a certain phone number at the start of each tour of duty in that office, and getting the "correct" time and either observing, synchronizing, or making sure the office or depot clock was in "compliance"
Its beginning to sound like" Tales from the Rails" here But I'm glad to be able to answer your questions truthfully and honestly and I believe it gives us all a better understanding of just how important our hobby or passion will always be Thanks for your questions.
regards,
bb

Oh, I understand all that too. Yes, my ggf was close to management level and required to carry a standard watch, but my granddad was a boiler worker in the roundhouse, and my Dad a time freight hump clerk...none of which required standard watches. That said, it was also the habit of the engineers/conductors to do the same practice of stopping by Jarvis Jewelers as they walked from the 'Y' to pick up their engines across the street. Portsmouth being the terminal for the division and crew change location, it was a pretty active yard in its day.

I'm also guessing our difference in practices are the fact I'm talking about the 20's through the early 60's regarding time practices and the rules governing them on that particular division of the N&W.

I've heard stories of how they worked around the rules...and just as many of when they got caught too.

Regards! Mark

Dana

Buster or Mark may correct me, but most clocks were set daily by either a telegraph signal just before noon each day when all the lines would go silent while the signal was sent & all the clocks set to that signal.

Others like Buster mentioned were slave clocks, I have seen the Western Union slave clocks, they were wired into Western Union's lines & the master clock would send a signal down the wire & all the clocks on the system would reset themselves to that clock.

I believe the time signals came from the Naval Observatory.

Tom

That was the practice in Portsmouth....Western Union 'time stamp' at noon to slaved clocks.

They were still doing that through the late 70's too. I did some work as a teletype operator at the plant I was at, and we had a Western Union head machine in our crypto room. At noon Eastern time exactly, the tape reader would start clattering for 10 seconds, then stop. We were told never to send traffic up to 5 minutes before noon due to that incoming time stamp each day. When the reader stopped clacking, the time was 12:00:00, and we set our clock and the operator watch accordingly. That's when I first purchased an Accutron 214 railroad watch, due to it's accuracy, railroad approved, and ability to syncronize its second hand.

That daily time stamping by Western Union was stopped in the 80's, and from then on I was required to sent our clock and my watch by the Boulder, CO atomic clock for zulu time. I didn't realize it as much at the time that I had witnessed the end of another era.

Regards! Mark

Great post guy's. I just started a topic in clocks about what I think is a slave clock (the seller said it came from a rail road but I am not sure).

Mike

Strange Michael, after I posted here I saw your clock & posted over there that I thought it was a slave clock. The case looks just like the Western Union slave clocks.

Tom

So very true Tom & Mark,
I can only recall one or two locations along the route such as a freight station or facility in the 60's that had a mechanical regulator in place that had to be manually set. And by the late 60's they were long gone
It is so important to realize just how big of an importance, the RR's play in our hobby/passion
Without them the love/lore would knock us down to the equals of "thimble" "plate" "Hummels" "stamp"etc. etc. etc. collecting And we would never have the appeal, romance, and VALUE that we have today without them in our clocks & watches Time is most certainly= $$$$
regards,
bb

Amen to that, Brother!!!

HIGH regards! Mark

When I read these posts I'm reminded of what a good investment the membership dues for this club really is.

I'm surprised some clever
Ball-type character didn't come up with a sealed case to keep you diabolical RR guys from tampering with those watches.

Dana

Dana,
One reason and one reason only, the "human~factor"
Sometimes you would forget to wind your watch OR, heaven forbid Some may have been too drunk to remember which end was up and exactly what they did or were supposed to do next
I luv my timepieces~and IHC185, don't you
regards,
bb

This is all very interesting!

One thing is not crystal clear to me, however... did rsilroads buy watches for the use of employees, or did they require all employees to by their own RR 'approved' models? Did RR's buy watches at discount prices and sell them to employees? Did the RR's own the newer 'wristie' loaners?
Mike

Mike, the employee was required to buy his own watch, some of the railroads & jewelers allowed the watch to be paid for over time & the payment taken from the employees check & sent to the jeweler.

The only time I recall reading that a railroad bought watch was way back around 1870 (maybe 1860's) that a railroad in PA. bought a certain number of watches & the engineer would pick it up when he came to work, but that system did not last long.

Tom

Great thread guys! I'm surprised Larry hasn't chimed in as to the differences with the Canadian Railroads.

Yes Tom, that was on the Pennsylvania Railroad and the specially marked Elgin KW/KS watches associated with that short-lived experiment (marked Pennsylvania Railroad Co. on dial, B.W. Raymond on movement) are highly collectible today (see Shugart Watch Guide page 181).

Thanks Ed, I thought that was it & had an article about it but couldn't find it & I was afraid I would be wrong. A appreciate it.

Tom

Hello Dana, what a great question! I'm not trying to hijack your question, but I wonder if Buster or any of the other guys on here with railroad experience,could say what happened to a railroader if he got caught resetting his watch, or even worse,making a regulator adjustment?A lot of RR grade watches, especially Walthams and Hampdens with the star wheel type micro regulators could be easily adjusted with something like a toothpick.I've always thought that whiplash regs were intended to deter people from trying to adjust their own watches, since the average guy wouldn't likely own a set of watchmaker's screwdrivers. Ted

great info Buster. thanks

Hi Ted,
Management and labor, as in most companies and corporations, had seperate quarters and didn't intermingle. Most RR's had a "great room" with wooden bench tables, lockers and facilities used by the train & engine service employees. Sometimes in the same building, but a different section with seperate entrances and exits, management resided If there was a problem or an explanation due, a clerk or yardmaster would stick his head thru a "cubbyhole" and ask you to report to the boss's office
So in answer, you were not very likely to get caught. It was and is a "rank & file" arrangement thats been in use since the war of 1812 and we were the enlisted men, if you will I doubt many of us would have known what a regulator was on a watch back then
There was no socializing between the rank & file either on property or off. Two very seperate identities Management hated labor and vise a versa Depending on which "side" you were on, there was mostly animosity if not downright hatred for the other "enemy" It has changed very little and remains so till today. We were always looked on as a liability and not as an assett Occasionely "we" could get along, and that was the very best you could possibly hope for, all things considered
Thanks Joe
Regards,
bb

Buster, you should write a book. Your anecdotes add flesh and blood to watch collecting. I found myself going to the computer to see what else had been added to the thread before I even had my coffee. I find the labor/management angle to the story particularly interesting, since I'm the senior shop steward where I work. Circumventing rules and regulations is still good sport.

Dana

Hi Buster,
After reading your posts, I just had to comment a little. I worked for the Northern Pacific, Burlington Northern and BNSF for 41 years, in the Signal Department. We had no problems visiting with our management or anyone else. Our offices were sometimes side by side depending on locations. That must have been a trainmen thing, because we didn't see it.
On the time stuff, the clocks that I ever saw were set by Western Union at Noon. The guys checked their watches by those clocks. I am not sure how they were supposed to set them, but I know a few that used their finger nail to stop the second hand.
It kind of ironic that during the "60s" with CTC and TWC the watch wasn't that important to trainmen. They were pretty much controlled by the dispatchers and the siganls, not time. The people using the motor cars, HI-Rail trucks and people fouling the track depended more on watches than ever before, and still do.
Enjoy your retirement.
Best regards.

When I met my wife in 1983 she lived in a duplex owned by a RR'er that worked for N&W and many of her friends (at least 4 that I know of worked for N&W) and you heard all kinds of tales and what runs they liked the best. I guess she knew more than a few RR'ers because her father was a "yardmaster" at the N&W coal yard in Sandusky. Most of them ran short hops east/west but the disposition of ConRail always bothered them since Conrail owned a double track runing east/west and if N&W purchased ConRail then the normal runs east/west would change. The N&W-Southern merger took place afterwards so I am not sure what their take was on that, NS later did get part of the Conrail system and the double east/west track. I always got the impression that they were a bit unhappy with management/worker relationship that Buster alluded to. Her father carried a 21j 16s Burling Special with a Montgomery dial and a gold case, but I tend to think he wore a wristwatch in the later years (he died a year before I met my wife). The one comment as to if you could set the watch or not, requirements were that the watch had to be under +/- 30 secs per week and that it was properly maintained (cleaned/oiled/inspected) on the time frame designated by the RR company. So if I have a watch that is losing 10-20 secs per day no way would it pass inspection, so as Mark mentioned I am sure many were reset on some basis as a result of "oops I forgot" or "oops, how much did I drink last night" and I am sure that some reset their watches to stay consistent rather than remembering I am now off 8 secs or 12 seconds because it has been 2 days or 3 days or 5 days since I last reset my watch (4 secs per day, keeps up the 30 sec per week rule).