Can anyone tell me how many 23J 12S Illini watches were produced? Serial #4703452. Thanks.

Illini 23-jewel movements were made in two runs of up to 100 each, but I am only aware of nine surviving examples, two of which I own. The serial number you posted is not for an Illini 23 jewel movement. It is for a 17j Grade 305 16-size watch. Please recheck your serial number.

I collect Illinis, and I am especially interested in the very scarce 23 jewel Illinis. They all were from either a 2,933,900-999 run (the surviving examples of which I am aware are ## 918,* 922, 944, 951, and 964 from this run) or the 2,935,000-099 range (the surviving examples of which I am aware are ## 011, 041,* 076,097 from this run). I owned the asterisked examples. I know who owns four of the other examples. Of the remaining 3, (1) one (2,933,944) is shown in the Snyder database, but I don't know its present owner, (2) I know the seller of one but not who bought it, and (3), I know the last of these three (2,933,964) only from a copy of the certificate that came with it when it was sold.

So if you really have a 23 jewel Illini, I would love to know its serial number and I would appreciate you posting photos of it.

Ethan, Thank you very much for the detailed information on the Illini. Sounds like I might not have one from your detailed explanation. I just gave it to my grandson for graduation. It is in an Illinois case, in script on the movement is Illini in script, 23 jewels on the movement, case #'s match. I will try and check further on serial #. Thanks, Bob

Ethan, My wife read the serial # of the case. In checking my picture and information, the serial # on the movement is 2933972. Pretty exciting and unbelievable. Maybe we found another one!!!The case, hands and dial are all in great shape. At this time my grandson has the watch and all I could do at this point is to send you a picture of the frontal view if I had your e-mail address. Again, thanks. Bob

Bob, I think that is great that you passed the watch along to your grandson. When people at work bring family watches to me for my opinion on value, I always suggest that they keep it in the family if at all possible.

The 23J Illini is a very revered watch from about 1917, only 200 numbers were "blocked" and/or possibly made and as Ethan said there are few remaining examples. WWI had just begun for the U.S. and it is no wonder there are only a handful of survivors. The assumed 10% theory left after 100 years may not be so far off after all.

On April 6,1917 USofA entered WWI With Major Gen. John J. Pershing at the helm. Over 2 million U.S. soldiers fought in France. Military and civilian casualties in WWI was over 37 million: over 17 million deaths and 20 million wounded, making it one of histories deadliest conflicts.

The watch is a wonderful treasure to pass on to a family member.

regards,
bb

Bob, I am delighted to learn that you indeed have, or should I say "had," a 23-jewel Illini. Please post the picture you have on this message board so that everyone can see it. If you want to send it just to me, my e-mail address is ethanlipsig@paulhastings.com

I thought some of you might like to see the certificate that came with the Illini 23-jewel watches. It is for a watch that is 8 numbers apart from your grandson's watch, Bob.

We (my wife) will send a picture to you via e-mail. Have never posted anything on 185, but we will try. I know the key picture is the one of the movement. At some point I will get more detailed pictures to have for my records and would be willing to share at that time. Thanks to all for your comments. They are appreciated. Bob

Front view of Illini.

Mr. Shafer, what is the case made of? Golf filled, 14k, etc. To my knowledge, yours is only the second glass enamel dial that has shown up. The first was a single sunk dial and yours is a double sunk dial. The rest of the dials I've seen have been metal dials with a radium metal dial (majority) or a metal dial with gold numbers. I own two of the Illini's mentioned by Ethan and both of mine are in original cases, one is 14k green gold with a radium metal dial with the other being 18k gold with a metal dial and gold numerals. I believe my dials are also original to the watches. My dials and my 18k case contradict the certificate shown by Ethan.

Michael, Thanks for your response. It is gold filled not 18k. I do not believe it to be green gold, but sometimes hard for me to tell. Case back reads: Illinois Watch Case Co #4703452 Can you determine anything from the serial #? All case numbers match. Was unaware of the various dials. Bought it several years ago when my grandson was a little tyke, with the intention of someday giving it to him, because he was an Illini fan.

Really can't tell anything from the case serial numbers. Cases were made by several manufacturers even though signed Illinois. If you knew who made it for Illinois and had a serial number list coordinated with dates of manufacture that would help. But as far as I know, no lists such as I mentioned are out there.

At any rate a very rare and desirable movement. I hope your grandson appreciates watches more than my son does!

Here is the movement of mine.

and the dial

another

and finally

not sure what I did wrong before but this should be it.

Michael, Thanks for the pictures. I will try and post more of mine tomorrow afternoon or Saturday morning, if I can get them tomorrow.

Not to hog in, but how about this promotion.

Kevin, that is a marvelous 'artifact' since it is the closes thing to an ad for the 23 jewel Illini extant. Unfortunately, I can't read any of the info when I increase the font size. Is there any way to increase the size and quality of the copy and repost it. Especially the letter from the Illinois watch company!

Michael,

I sent a larger version of the image via private email.

Here's the link for anyone interested:

https://books.google.com/books...%20barrel%22&f=false

best,
Kevin

Here are some pictures of my granson's "Illini"

picture #2 Sorry for the graininess. Movement has no discoloration on it.

picture #3

I've never seen one of these 23 jewel Illini watches until now. Very sweet!

William

Very nice watches. There is a 23 jewel Hallmark closing soon that claims to be the same fit and finish as the 23J Illini.

Any opinions on the sellers claim? It sure looks like it might be the same grade watch at a fraction of the price.

VERY FEW (90?) 23J Hallmarks were made by Illinois Watch Co. The Goldbook shows a 1980's value for 21J Hallmark of $250.00, I would bet this Triple signed 23J from a 90 piece unmarked run just after the 23J same grade (510) Ariston (valued at $275.00 in 1980) is a three star or better rare watch being offered at about the collectible value.

Attached are images of a recent listing:

[Movement number: 2905419]

The Grade 510 "Hallmark"[PL] is a very interesting watch. This one was made in 1916. As the seller says the Grade 510's had Raised Gold Jewel Settings but.... the Grade 510's marked "Hallmark" [PL] had burnished in jewel settings like the Illini Grade.

What I really would be interested in seeing would be how many "positions" the Hallmark" Grade 510's are marked. 510 Grades were generally marked 5 Positions Adjusted. The seller alludes to this watch has 6 Adjustments, which aren't Positions but since he's throwing that "6" in there, it may be marked 6 Positions Adjusted, which would make it even more interesting.

The book shows 423 of the Grade 510's were made but I never could find but 372 total produced.

As compared to the Illini with only 200 total produced, logic would put the Illini Grade as about twice as scarce as the Grade 510's.

There were several Illinois 12 size watches that are interesting to me. That would be the Grades 299 [in 23 jewel], Grade 410, Grade 416, Grade 510, and of course the Illini Grade. For the most part and for their "following" all the above listed grades are really close in pricing while the Illini seems to usually be slightly higher priced. Probably because of total production numbers except for the Grade 416 of which only 100 were made.....

These smaller high~grade 12 size watches are the counter-part to the RR versions and no doubt were made for the affluent from 1906 to 1926 with the Grade 410's having the longest run of 13 years from 1913 to 1926.

regards,
bb

There were a total of 483 grade 510 watches made in 13 runs. Of these, 40 have been identified as Aristons (Marshall Field), 150 as Illinois and 250 as Hallmarks (United Jewelers). So, watches from some runs haven't shown up so as to determine who those runs were made for.

I have two of these Hallmark watches, one is a 25 year case and one in a 14k green gold case. Both cases are signed Hallmark watch. And, both are from the same run as this auction watch.

The only watches in the 583 using "burnished in"
jewels are the Hallmark watches. All 483 of the 510's are 14 size pillar plate on a 12 size watch and require special cases.

Other than being 12/14 watches, the 23 jewel Hallmark watches seem to be the closest to the 23 jewel Illinois Illini watch. All are of Illinois' highest quality watches for their time.

Buster, here is the adjustment position marking from an essentially identical Hallmark PL 510, saying "Adjusted 6 Positions."

Great !! Thanks Ethan !

regards,
bb

Great stuff guys... I'm glad I asked the question.