Paul Trombley asked me about this watch on eBay. While it had a completely trashed Balance wheel, a short research told me it was a real FIND!!! So Paul was advised to BUY IT!!! ($67.00 Incl Shipping).

The Case is clearly something that holds it until a better HC is found

Now the fun! INSIDE the case is #2 of the first 50 extra Rare 2 or 3 Star Railroad King movements made by Illinois Watch Co, with a Private label engraved on the Movement for Engel Natl Watch Co., Chicago! (Who-DAT?!)

This 18s Grade 65S 17 Jewel fully adjusted Illinois movement had a total production of 1100 EVER!

I restored it with a good replacement balance wheel, the original Hair Spring, 1 extra pair of wheel weights, some better jewels and it "came in" (pretty much) to RR time again.

Paul is fast learning where to look and when to buy. Good find Paul!

Nice save - Dave...

A huge thank you to Dave for being available to answer questions and run serial numbers. It was fun to find a watch I knew looked "different" and have it validated with a phone call.

I also knew it was a basket case, but Dave never flinched. I find it pretty amazing he was able to bring her back to within seconds a day.

The intricate engraving is pretty impressive, I'd been shopping for a Chalmers regulator, all the blue screws are there and we have yet to figure out who Engle Natl Watch Co. is.

Figuring out it is a very early Railroad King was just icing on the cake.

Thanks for inviting me aboard, Pault

I didn't understand where the Railroad King part comes in. If the movement doesn't say 'Railroad King' it becomes a Private Label, Illinois movement. Usually on these private labels there is a dial that corresponds with the movement name.

Mike, you are right about the dial. The Illinois signed dial that came with this was pretty trashed, but I had an identical dial that was not trashed, so that lives on this watch. Evidently from what we have learned in researching these guys The original dial on this watch was certainly signed Engel National Watch Co., so if one of those floats to the surface, every effort will be to marry it back to this movement.

As for the issues of higher grade signed movements, it was common practice among ALL the watchmakers in the last decade of the 19th century (this one is a 1894 production) to co-manufacture private label movements with the same highest level manufacturing fit and finish that were advertised for their own named high grades such as the few Railroad kings that were noted as being the basis for the first run of 50 pieces that included this one ordered to be signed and delivered by and to Engel Watch Co.

As far as Illinois watch Co. was concerned, this was a grade 65S 17 Jewel, Hunter Cased, well adjusted and Micro-regulated movement, one of only 1100 made. Many were (evidently) signed "Rail Road King". But there were other signatures among the 1100 Gr65S 17J HC made including;
"Wilson Bros., Boston Mass" s/n's 1240601-0700
"NEW Railroad King" s/n's 1240601-0700
"Remington Watch Co." s/n's 1271001-1100

During the same period, Illinois also produced 200 Grade 65S HC made with 15 jewels with some named same as above.

Besides the few Hunter cased versions noted above, Illinois also made short runs of Grade 65S Open Face movements in 15, 16, 17, and 21 Jewel configurations spanning several more ranges of model types.

It appears in fact that the Grade 65 series of Illinois watches were a popular high end Private Label grade most often finished to Railroad Grade standards.

And for the simple answer, when we ran this serial number in the Illinois data base, it comes up as the second serial number of the first run of 50 Rail Road Kings.

Paul,
Serial number data bases are not always as exact as we would like them to be. Things happen in the production line to create little anomalies like your Private Label watch. Nobody cares to much until 120 years later. I like your watch very much, but you would be mistaken to try and sell it as a RR King because it was made as a Private Label watch. The engraving tells me so.

Fair enough. I don't intend to sell it anytime soon. Still trying to figure out who Engel was.

I found an early Columbia 18s case with screw marks from a previously mounted Illinois movement. What a world of difference a case makes. A perfect home for my Bates-n-Bacon chain too.

What a difference a dial makes. It's took 15 months to land a dial. I saw only one other surface and it went for over a hundred bucks in rough condition some time last summer. I was real fortunate this one came in on a running 15j movement in great condition.

15 months also gave me time to to learn how to do ear muffs.

The only thing I don't have parts or experience with is a lift spring for the front lid.

The brassing from the bow is the only brassing on the case, front and back.

New dial and replaced glued crystal with snap fit

One more look at the movement

Nice Dial. You need to get a supply of Lift springs. So you can replace the one on your watch.

Excellent job, Paul!

How about a shot of that dial without the bezel?

Dial back

Bezel off

A beauty; well worth the wait.

Interesting that the dial signature is cursive, and the movement is engraved in Olde English script.

The engraving on the movement appears pretty typical since my 65s has the same style font. It is a private label from a jeweler in Ohio.

Paul, I think you scored a very nice watch, kudos to both your and David's efforts to bring it back. Thanks for sharing.
Gary

Paul, you have a winner! I stick with my point that there is no doubt in my mind that this example of the first 50 Grade 65 Adjusted movements made which now has a Hand-Signed Dial with a scripted font that is much different than the Diamond cut movement signature is only because an artist's pen is "markedly" (pun intended) different from an Engraver's Diamond cutting tool and hand Pantograph setup likely used to complete the movement plate in the mid-1890's.

The Database specifically remarks that this first 50 piece production (of which this is #22) of these Gr.65 movements were RR King models although some were of "Mixed" production. Certainly this was originally finished to RR Grade, and now restored back to a double signed watch represents a very worthy restoration.

Elgin grade 277 factory record

I think grouping this watch with Rail Road King is a bit like grouping a grade 150 with a grade 277. All told there are probably less than 300 grade 150's that were converted from pendant set to lever set and if you are looking at documented grade 277's the list above is it which is about 190 total.

In the case of the 277 most people would pay more for serial number 7,875,826 (lever set 277) than for 7,875,823,824 or 825 which are pendant set 150's. The quality is the same but one change makes a big difference in the eyes of watch collectors.

I have a private label 65S but would not consider it to be a Rail Road King even if it was one serial number away from an official Rail Road King, since as I have shown with the Elgin factory records for the grade 277 one serial number difference can make a big difference in collectability.

You can do the same thing for Elgin 265's, 266's and some 348's (converted 149's marked 348).

Not to dismiss this watch for what it is,a very nice restoration and I like my PL 65S but calling it a Rail Road King would be a mistake.

My 65S is sn range 1,240,701 -1,240,800 and the New Rail Road King is 1,240,601 - 700. Mine is trimmed in gilt even the regulator and screws but in the end it is a just a J A Zang private label 65S, absolutely beautiful but just a private label.

Claude,

I appreciate your input, as well as others. A year ago I would have engaged in this discussion.

Today, I'm more inclined to absorb the comments and attempt to assimilate the data points.

Kinda like a little watch collecting sponge... or impressionable young one...

What I do know is along the same track as many other discussions... making a watch right is an expensive proposition... This project started with a $67.00 movement and has grown in to a $340.00 and 20 hour "challenge project".

I can't even call it a poor man's RR King because I'm already over that value for "just a PL"

Paul I paid $220 for mine not including the cost of a COA so price wise I am into mine as much as you are and don't regret it at all.

Mine is a beautiful watch, after the coa it runs great and I have no regrets. I am sure that 330-380 is over book for a private label 65S but I don't care.

I don't know how many J A Zang grade 65S's are out there, probably less than the number of "New Rail Road King" but to most collectors that matters little. Other than the labeling I doubt there is any difference from a 1,240,69X New Rail Road King and my 1,240,7XX J A Zang but that labeling makes a ton of difference.

Claude,

I'm actually ok with all the banter. I understand every penny of it.

Over the course of two years I have gained invaluable technical and personal experience through exchanges like this.

One of the beauties of this fellowship is the diversity. Some are technocrats, some are investors, some are top shelf only, some are historically significant. I appreciate and respect the perspective of all the above and others whom may not fit quite so neatly in to any of the above.

Ya'll will have plenty of fun with me in pitfalls when I decide to sell this one.

Another 17J Adjusted PL in the middle of an RR King run. Total production of this model is 1100. I still have my Engle shown above. This one is marked "Wilson Brothers" "Special for Railway Service" on the dial and "King of the Road" "Wilson Bros." "Boston Mass" on the movement.

Interesting to me that the RR Kings used the same "Special for Railway Service" on their dials.

I've read recently that the RR King is simply a PL... no more or less than any other PL.

All 65, 65s watches were created equal. But, for some reason, the PL RR King watches have more provenance than the other PL's... somewhere along the line they developed a special following. Perhaps it's because of who ordered the PL or the reason for ordering the PL. It isn't like they were a super grade watch within a grade... they just happen to have a cool name.

My photo does not do it justice, but this watch has a very nice two tone checkerboard pattern in the center section. The PG only discusses two tone movements in the 19J OF version.

This watch came to me for service from a fellow in the club. It only took me a couple seconds to figure out it is a sibling of my Engle Natl Watch Co watch above.

This watch is in much better condition. Very low mileage. All matching numbers with all wheels, jewels, springs and pivots in like new condition.

Great work Paul!

It's pretty easy when you get handed something in near new condition that just needs to a little TLC.