WWT Shows CLICK TO: Join and Support Internet Horology Club 185™ IHC185™ Forums

• Check Out Our... •
• TWO Book Offer! •
Page 1 2 
Go
New Topic
Find-Or-Search
Notify
Tools
Reply to Post
  
Neat Old Pocket Watch "Click" to Login or Register 
IHC Member 1622
posted
Just wanted to get any information I could on this old watch. I do not have a case like this in my collection and this case is solid, not gold filled. Any information would be appreciated.
Thanks,

 
Posts: 168 | Location: Kentucky in the USA | Registered: October 16, 2011
IHC Member 1622
posted
Movement

 
Posts: 168 | Location: Kentucky in the USA | Registered: October 16, 2011
IHC Member 1338
posted
If serial # is 1137811 I'm seein a 18S 11J Model 1 Grade 13 from 1883
Says it's KW/KS but yours isn't?
May have wrong serial number
Looks like nice case!


Tom Dunn...
TIME MACHINE
www.myrailroadwatch.com
.
 
Posts: 2957 | Location: Ramsey, Illinois in the USA | Registered: December 15, 2008
IHC Member 1892
posted
Hi Joey: Just a comment about the case. It would appear to be a Rockford "convertable". Is that correct? John
 
Posts: 353 | Location: Kincardine, Ontario in Canada | Registered: November 25, 2013
IHC Member 1555
posted
Hi Joey, just wondering mate if you can give me the number of the Muckle case and some other info such as the data from the case lids, i.e. markings that are there as we collect this info, Cheers?
 
Posts: 2170 | Location: Gladstone in Australia | Registered: January 14, 2011
IHC Member 1622
posted
Thanks for the comments. Bila, I will get the case markings next time I see the watch.
 
Posts: 168 | Location: Kentucky in the USA | Registered: October 16, 2011
IHC Member 1650
posted
The serial # must be 1187811. That makes it a 16 size 11 jewel grade 92 made in 1883.
 
Posts: 348 | Location: Illinois in the USA | Registered: November 17, 2011
IHC Member 1622
posted
I checked the S/N, Douglas you are correct.
 
Posts: 168 | Location: Kentucky in the USA | Registered: October 16, 2011
IHC Member 1892
posted
Bila: Not to hijack Joey's post but I will give you info on my Muckle case.
Inside front cover "Rockford"
Coin
24740

Inside Back cover: "Rockford"
24740
E.A Muckle
Pat.April 3 1883

My watch currently has a Rockford movement but not sure it is original. Do you know if all Muckle cases came with the Elgin movement? Do you know if they made both 18 and 16 size cases. John
 
Posts: 353 | Location: Kincardine, Ontario in Canada | Registered: November 25, 2013
IHC Member 1622
posted
John,
When you get time, show us a pic.
Take care,
Joey
 
Posts: 168 | Location: Kentucky in the USA | Registered: October 16, 2011
IHC Member 1555
posted
Thanks for the number John, Muckle cases came with movements from an array of Manufacturer's. Muckle cases were made in both 18 Size and 16 Size case sizes.

Some case's where marked for Rockford,some with "Northwest", "Northwestern" for the "Northwestern Case Co and some that carried Muhr's trademark, which were probably marked for them, not produced by them.

Can you post a picture of the Rockford movement and its dial John as well?
 
Posts: 2170 | Location: Gladstone in Australia | Registered: January 14, 2011
IHC Member 1892
posted
Thanks Bila: Will try to post pics but may need Dr. Debbie's help. Thanks for the info.John
 
Posts: 353 | Location: Kincardine, Ontario in Canada | Registered: November 25, 2013
IHC Member 1555
posted
Thanks John, look forward to viewing them if you or Dr. Debbie can postSmile
 
Posts: 2170 | Location: Gladstone in Australia | Registered: January 14, 2011
Administrative Assistant
Picture of Dr. Debbie Irvine
posted

John Willis image #1


 
Posts: 4838 | Location: Northern Ohio in the U.S.A. | Registered: December 04, 2002
Administrative Assistant
Picture of Dr. Debbie Irvine
posted

John Willis image #2


 
Posts: 4838 | Location: Northern Ohio in the U.S.A. | Registered: December 04, 2002
Administrative Assistant
Picture of Dr. Debbie Irvine
posted

John Willis image #3


 
Posts: 4838 | Location: Northern Ohio in the U.S.A. | Registered: December 04, 2002
Administrative Assistant
Picture of Dr. Debbie Irvine
posted

John Willis image #4


 
Posts: 4838 | Location: Northern Ohio in the U.S.A. | Registered: December 04, 2002
IHC Member 1892
posted
Thanks for the help, John
 
Posts: 353 | Location: Kincardine, Ontario in Canada | Registered: November 25, 2013
IHC Member 1555
posted
Thanks for the photos John and Dr. Debbie, looks like a nice comboSmile John, I take it that the lever is at approximately 24-25 minute mark and is that another screw marked on the case rim near that part serial, or just an artifact in the picture?
 
Posts: 2170 | Location: Gladstone in Australia | Registered: January 14, 2011
IHC Member 1622
posted
John,
Great looking watch!!!
Joey
 
Posts: 168 | Location: Kentucky in the USA | Registered: October 16, 2011
IHC Member 1892
posted
Thanks Joey, Bila that is a screw mark so at some time it must of had a different movement, not sure what it would have been. . Yes lever is at approx 25 min. location. Thanks for your input. John
 
Posts: 353 | Location: Kincardine, Ontario in Canada | Registered: November 25, 2013
IHC Life Member
Picture of Ethan Lipsig
posted
I don't recall ever seeing a Muckle case except in a few photos. Muckles weren't the only convertible cases on the market. I own a circa 1860s Alfred Lavalette KW (Swiss) cased in a 14k Baldwin & Co. convertible case, marked "Patent April 13, 1858". Although I see that the Muckle case shown in this posting is inscribed with an 1888 patent date, I wonder whether Muckle cases used the Baldwin patent or used a similar approach to convertibility. Do any of you know?

 
Posts: 1413 | Location: Pasadena, California USA | Registered: November 11, 2005
IHC Member 1892
posted
Hi Ethan: Beautiful case. Can the movement ring with the movement in be removed fron the outer case? In the Muckle design the movement with the center ring can be removed which makes it easier to work on it. I have no idea if there is any relationship between the two cases.
 
Posts: 353 | Location: Kincardine, Ontario in Canada | Registered: November 25, 2013
IHC Life Member
Picture of Ethan Lipsig
posted
John, as best I recall, the movement ring and movement cannot be removed. The watch is in my bank's vault, so I cannot verify this.
 
Posts: 1413 | Location: Pasadena, California USA | Registered: November 11, 2005
IHC Member 1555
posted
Ethan the main difference between the Baldwin case and a Muckle is that the Baldwin center ring is approximately at 45% to the perpendicular (this allows for the sub-dial to be correct for either hunter or open face configuration), also most Baldwin cases you see will be key-wind, where as the Muckle are stem-wind.

Muckle also had a very similar case patent as the 1888 one as early as 1867, another 9 years after the Baldwin design. Whether Muckle based his case with his own alteration of the center ring being perpendicular when compared to the Baldwin case I do not know.
 
Posts: 2170 | Location: Gladstone in Australia | Registered: January 14, 2011
IHC Member 1555
posted
Looks like they also made a convertible case with the center ring perpendicular as well Ethan, also the Patent calls them a "Magic Case" as it was known in the trade. So maybe this is where Muckle got his idea from?
 
Posts: 2170 | Location: Gladstone in Australia | Registered: January 14, 2011
IHC Life Member
Picture of Ethan Lipsig
posted
Bila, thanks for your very perceptive and accurate comments. The Baldwin's patent describes the case as a "magic" case and the patent drawing shows a case with the movement pivot perpendicular to the bow, rather than at the 45 degree angle of my case.

Here is how the watch looks in the OF configuration.

 
Posts: 1413 | Location: Pasadena, California USA | Registered: November 11, 2005
IHC Life Member
Picture of Ethan Lipsig
posted
Here is how it looks in the hunter configuration.

 
Posts: 1413 | Location: Pasadena, California USA | Registered: November 11, 2005
IHC Life Member
Picture of Ethan Lipsig
posted
Other side

 
Posts: 1413 | Location: Pasadena, California USA | Registered: November 11, 2005
IHC Life Member
Picture of Ethan Lipsig
posted
Case marking

 
Posts: 1413 | Location: Pasadena, California USA | Registered: November 11, 2005
IHC Life Member
Picture of Ethan Lipsig
posted
Movement

 
Posts: 1413 | Location: Pasadena, California USA | Registered: November 11, 2005
IHC Member 1555
posted
Would you happen to have a shot of the dial while it is in the hunter configuration Ethan?
 
Posts: 2170 | Location: Gladstone in Australia | Registered: January 14, 2011
IHC Life Member
Picture of Ethan Lipsig
posted
Bila, I forgot to take a hunter-configuration dial shot when I photographed this watch. I will try to remember to remedy that failing next time I bring the watch home from the bank. However, the auction house that sold me this watch included such a photo in its catalog.
See https://www.skinnerinc.com/auctions/3775T/lots/1030.
 
Posts: 1413 | Location: Pasadena, California USA | Registered: November 11, 2005
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2  
 


©2002-2021 Internet Horology Club 185™ - Lindell V. Riddle President - All Rights Reserved Worldwide

Internet Horology Club 185™ is the "Family-Friendly" place for Watch and Clock Collectors