Hi all
On a watch with a gold train would the wheels be solid gold or just gold plated or does it depend on the watch.
And if it depends on the watch, would the Illinois 706 have a solid gold train or just gold plated?

Thanks guys
Francesco

I know of no clear or simple answer to that question. All we have go by is the watches themselves and period advertising, which is usually ambiguous at best.

The "gold gears" were just for looks, so heavy gold plating and polishing, such as we think Hamilton did with their "highly polished gold center wheel" would get the job done, but some of the "gold train" gears may have in fact been solid low carat gold, which would have had mechanical properties equivalent to the brass that was typically used.

It's impossible to know for sure without cutting up train wheels and examining them microscopically.

Some brands took more effort on gold trains than others, so what Ed mentioned is correct and who would want to start killing gears to see if what they are in terms of kts. Some of the Elgin 161' and 155's were supposed to have solid gold escape wheels. Some I think were not heavy gold and these were ones where the company did not take the effort to have round spokes, bevel edges etc and it looks more punched but on the topic gold plated, if that was the case then you would think that some areas of the plating would wear off and could be seen.

That's right Claude, I think it would be safe to say that ultra-high grade watches like a Keystone/Howard Edward Howard, which even had solid gold plates, would have had solid gold gears as well. I also think it probable that Illinois, who were historically known for making their watches better than they needed to be, would have used solid gold gears in their higher grade watches if anyone did.

Just going on the appearance of the wheels, the round spokes on train wheel tells you only one thing for sure: that the wheel was made from an investment casting. That's the way they would have made a wheel if it were solid gold, but it could also have been cast out of brass and then plated. That's the way we think Hamilton made their "highly polished gold center wheel" with multiple plating and polishing steps to create the appearance of solid gold.

I have cleaned watches from several manufacturers where gold plating was flaking off the train wheels. That means that some were certainly plated.

Dave if you have seen it then that would be a clear clue that this happened but if the brand was plating them I would not expect them to also put the effort into the wheels. I would not expect Hamilton to put much in the way of gold train on anything but maybe the 950's. I am sure that might irk a few Hamilton collectors but if you look at pricing for the same type watch (jewel count, setting) Illinois, Waltham, and Elgin were priced higher and to put much gold into the train would have to be added into the cost of the movement.

Hamilton and Hampden worked in the same pricing range, Hamilton did charge as much for the 950 as 23j Veritas and 23j Sangamo in the same time period. The other brand like Howard and others were in a even differ pricing level.

Some people talk about gold being too soft for escape wheels but I have yet to see a 161/155 with worn out escape wheels. In service where the movement was exposed to coal dust or other fine materials steel was the obvious choice.

Dave,

That's a good piece of hard evidence, which is entirely consistent with prior discussion topics on this issue:

Link to prior gold train discussion topic.


Claude,

That's true, the escape wheel has a harder life than the rest of the train, and in fact from relatively early on in railroad time service rules, a steel escape wheel was required and was usually mentioned in period advertising for RRG watches (see photo).


1909 Hamilton Advertising -- Note prominent mention of "steel escape wheel" among the features.

I think there might have been some with gold filled wheels and solid gold settings.

I had a mainspring let go on one of my Hamilton 992's, and apparently the safety pinion didn't do its job, because it took a few teeth right off the gold center wheel.I don't know if it was a solid gold wheel or not, but I wonder if it would have done that with a plated brass wheel.

When the mainspring breaks at or near a "full wind" condition, the result can be near explosive and the entire wheel train is at risk. I have escape wheels where the teeth were flattened to the hub and those are far past the huge torque shocks delivered to the center wheel.

I expect the only difference between gold and brass center wheels under those circumstances would be how "fast" the teeth broke.

A great topic! I know that John Dueber liked to pinch the penny but I had a 21j 16s Hampden model 105 that was a disaster and when I looked at the center wheel, or more properly what was left of it, it seemed to be solid gold. I was a bit surprised and not being in the habit of cutting up center wheels cannot say if that is always the case.

I am always a bit confused when people start talking about 'solid gold' in anything since gold is inherently soft. I would think that if any part of the train were actually solid gold - I think that means 24k - they would have long ago stopped being functional.

What kind of gold content qualifies as 'solid gold' in the context of train wheels?

Mechanically sound "solid gold" in a wheel train could easily be 8-10K. The geometries of the train wheel teeth are actually "rolling" friction" design. That is why we call the little guys "pinions" as the original designs were made with round pins . . . for "gears". This design goes back to early Greco-Roman times and is still used today for precision motion control systems.

i.e., the only stress on the larger diameter gold wheels is some shear stress which is so trivial as to be a non-issue.

Regarding "gold trains" in Hamilton watches, some of the early 950's had gold trains and the first 3500-4000 950b's had gold trains. Also, all of the Hamilton size 12 and size 10 bridge presentation watches had gold trains along with their movements being white-gold "washed" or plated. So, that would be grades 920, 900, 902, 904, 922, Masterpiece, 921 and 923. And, the 23 jewel "little" watches were more expensive than the 23 jewel railroad watches.

forgot to include the grade 400 Hamilton in the list of watches with gold trains (but no gold wash from what I can determine).