Top Ten 12 Size Pocket Watch Movements?

In his review of the South Bend 431 Frank Kusumoto mentioned that he thought it ranked in the top ten of size 12 movements. Could/would he or anyone else let us know which other size 12 movements might rank in that lofty category?

Thanks,
Phil

Don't forget the 23J Hamilton Masterpiece, meaning Grade 922 MP, in 18K or iridium/platinum cases.

I don't want to stifle other's opinions so I will add my choices after you all have posted yours. And let's stick with production models that everyone actually has a chance of owning, unlike something like Waltham number 12,000,000 - a unique free-sprung bridge model with Cole's resilient escapement (my personal top pick).

[Oh, also, let's stick to American-made or assembled watches].

My thinking when I wrote that comment was only watches that I'm familiar with, but off the top of my head in no specific order these were the 12s PW's I was thinking of:

Hamilton 920 and 922
South Bend 431
Waltham Riverside Maximus/Colonial
Lord Elgin 12s (only seen one of those, very pretty)
E. Howard Series 8
There was a 12s Rockford that blew me away, but I can't remember the grade/name.

Also there are NUMEROUS Illinois 12s watches that are very nice and under-appreciated. You could make a career out of collecting all the different Illinois 12s'. I won't pretend to be an Illinois expert but there's got to be at least a couple of those that deserve consideration like the Illini and Marquis Autocrat.

There were also a number of nice 12s Hampden's, but I'm not that familiar with them either.

So I guess that's at least eight, and I'm sure I'm missing some. Also, as Jerry said above, I was thinking of 12s PW's that are in the "attainable" range and American made or produced. Not to put a dollar figure on it, but certainly less than 4 figures.

Anyways, I'm glad that little comment started this topic. It would be nice to see people chime in with comments and pics!

Frank "407" Kusumoto

I think the grade 410 illinois 23 jewel would make the top 10 ,,

Elgins C.H. Hulburd would definately be on the list. The 12s Raymond is a very nice piece also and should qualify.

I'd pick the 23 jewel Rockford grades 300 and 305 as my favorite "attainable" 12 size watches.

Fred

How about the Hamilton model 900?

Here's a very nice Hamilton 920 in a Solid 14K OF case that I have.

For me the top ones would be the American Grade bridge models followed closely by the Rockford 300 and 305. I also love the 23 jewel Illinois 410 examples, and the Hamiltons already mentioned. I especially like the 900 as beautiful and available.

Elgin's grade 194 also deserves to be included I think.

I don't really know the South Bend watches except for what I have seen here.

I will try to get some nice pictures of the Illinois 12 size posted soon. The 13 size Illini and their cousin the Hamilton 400 are very nice. The standard run of Illini and Illini Extra have gilt trains, but the grade 528 Illini and the Hamilton 400 have gold wheel trains and the 400 has a patent regulator as well.

Here is the Waltham bridge model.

I haven't owned many 12S PWs. But have worked on a few. From a fit and finish standpoint I find the Waltham Model 1894 Riverside and above grades to be some of the finest...

Friction fit balance staff, gold balance screws, gold center wheel, two sets of mean-time screws. Just a joy to work on!

Here's a 12-size Lord Elgin, Corsican bow, 14k white gold case. The dial is less pink than the picture, more of an ivory color.

The inside of the back cover is engraved with a continuous design, not smoothly polished as most are. The cuvette also has engraving around the outside edge. The watch would be much thinner without the two backs on the case. The case metal is substantial.

Here's another view of the cuvette and inside back

Here's the movement, 21-j eight adjustments. The plates are not decorated with damascening; they appear to be polished to a satin finish. The serial number is 26519615 which appears to be from the 1923 production year.

Sorry - I'm not ignoring everyone. We have seen some great examples already. My post is going to be rather lengthy and I have not had time to pull together all the photos or links that I want to include and add commentary. So far I think others have included most of what I would list. I am also having trouble limiting my list to just ten watches I will try to get it together this weekend.

Here's a nice 12s Elgin. The thing that really makes this a very nice little
watch is the wonderful case, and the dial isn't too shabby either.
Figure I

Figure II

Figure III

I wish I knew how to refinish winding wheels. These watches are hard enough to find that I am unlikely to find one in better condition.

I'll put my vote in for the C. H. Hulburd movement. Great Deco style 18K case and great movement.

The movement

WOW! I've seen alot of nice 12s watches on this thread! I can clearly see now why Jerry is taking his time and ruminating. There are several different ways of looking at "the top ten". When I made my original statement I wasn't counting cases or dials, just the movement. And I wasn't necessarily taking into account the "decoration", just the overall quality/precision of the production and mechanical parts. If you're a watchmaker or just a dabbler you know that feeling when you drop the gear train plate on and "voila!" all the pivots just drop into place, no fiddling necessary. Then you get these watches that look really cool and are good time keepers but are a pain in the patootie to work on. Hrmm... I guess I'm just rambling but it seems to me that of course there are at least a few different ways of making a top ten like:

"Best case and dial designs"
"Best damaskeening and decoration including bridge design"
"Best or most reliable or toughest mechanical works"
"Best overall"

There's been alot really good watches mentioned on the thread that are a little difficult to work on, but still great watches. There's been some real gems mentioned that are joys to work on and are seriously underated.

So I'm anxiously awaiting Jerry's list. It will be interesting. I'm sure like all top ten lists it will be debated/debatable. Hopefully Jerry starts it as a new thread so we can all start jumping in on it and posting new pics and opinions. But as long as everyone is having fun and learning something I'm sure it will be quite enjoyable. It also seems to me like it should be the start of a bulletin article or something.

Frank "407" Kusumoto

It has been a fairly hectic couple of weeks for me (outside the world of watches), but here is my list, as it stands. Most have already been mentioned. I will try to post pictures as I can.
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I am afraid that I must cheat a little in making my list of the top ten 12-size watches. I am going to have some double entries, including the "prestige" presentation watches along with their slightly less prestigious siblings. I decided to do this even as I considered Frank's intent to keep this list in the "attainable range ... certainly less than 4 figures". Several of the "prestige" watches are still surprisingly attainable, but I also suggest options. Also, it was just too darn difficult to keep the list to ten watches. I forced myself to not have more than two for any one company (but cheated on the alternates). So here are my picks, in no significant order.

1. Waltham - American Watch Co. grade bridge model - with somewhere around 2,000 made (including those finished for Howard) these are (in my opinion) among the finest American watches of any size. They have 21 jewels, full gold trains, gold jewel settings, recessed hub escape wheel and two to three pairs of diamond cap jewels. They were almost never listed in any sales catalogues, except one 1908 catalog I have indicating "price quoted on application". These bridge models are the equivalent of their 16-size cousins, probably scarcer, yet still seem to sell for much less today.

2. Waltham - Riverside Maximus - the top of Waltham's regular production. When you consider all of the 1894-model variants (hunting and open-face, 21 and 23 jewels, 3/4-plate or semi-bridge style, Colonial Series and standard 12-size) there were around 12,500 made of this grade -- certainly attainable. As with many Waltham grades, the earlier the example the better the finish. The earliest 3/4-plate models have diamond cap jewels (at the balance wheel, pallet arbor and escape wheel arbor), gold jewel settings, full gold trains and beautiful damasceening. The latest ones have fewer diamonds and less spectacular damasceening. The most common are the 23-jewel open-face models. Hunting movements are scarcer than the equivalent open-face model for any variant.

3. Elgin - Hulburd (grade 446) - A unique plate design with 19 jewels and limited production (8,000 listed but probably less than 2,000 actually finished) cased in solid gold or platinum. Originally released in 1922 as a prestige presentation watch these were later sold in less ornate cases, as late as 1939. This uniquely sized movement is factory cased. Surprisingly, these can still be found for under $1000, although the fancier early examples will command more. A great photo is shown by Tom, above.

4. Elgin - grade 190 or 194 (or Lord Elgin) - talking about Elgin's 23-jewel 2nd and 3rd model here, the grade numbers indicating hunting and open-face movements. Some of each were finished as Lord Elgin models. All are wonderful with deep red ruby jewels in gold settings, gold dome on the balance cock and a fully polished gold train. Early examples have the counterpoised "moustache" pallet fork. 6,000 total production (if all were finished). If you can't get a 23-jewel example, the rarer 21-jewel grades 236 or 237 (3,000 made) are a nice substitute (lacking the jeweled barrel arbor).

5. Hamilton - grade 400 - a wonderful movement that Hamilton inherited from Illinois, it is distinguished by the unique 5-tooth recoiling click designed by C.E. DeLong. Hamilton went a step further on their version with a finer finish including a gold train and recessed hub escape wheel (2300 produced, but the first 800 are a little nicer). As Tom M. pointed out, the rare Illinois "Illini" grade 528 also has some of the higher finish characteristics, and both are a thin, factory-cased 12-size. The 13-size Illini (grade 538 or 539 "EXTRA") also can serve as an example of this wonderful movement. (see how I cheat and get several in on one number)

6. Hamilton - grade922MP - another one of the attainable "prestige watches". The 23-jewel grade 922 Masterpiece was Hamilton's top presentation piece and came factory cased in 18K gold or platinum. The examples that are marked "Masterpiece" also have a special Invar balance wheel. The regular grade 922 or 920 are also at the top here, with gold train and gold jewel settings. (another three-fer)

7. Illinois - Illini 23j - another very special watch, shown above by Tom M. This probably should be a prestige watch, but apparently was not marketed as such and no advertising has been found for it. Uniquely marked with the script "Illini" and sporting burnished jewels it has the highest level of finish. However, with only 200 made don't feel bad if you have to settle for the grade 410, Illinois' top model of the time period with gold settings and gold train.

8. Illinois - grade 299 - a beautiful movement that usually has Illinois' classic gothic numeral dial. These are beautifully finished movements with deep red ruby jewels in gold settings, a full gold train and fine fish-scale damasceening. The 21-jewel model, many with private-label markings are definitely attainable (2600+ made, OF & Htg.) but the 23-jewel version is rare, with only 440 made (OF & Htg. - hunting case models are much scarcer in each jeweling).

9. Howard "J" size - this is a solidly built timepiece and is also the first 12-size marketed for the gentleman's market (ca.1892). The Howard name (pre-Keystone) and historical importance put it on this list. It lacks the gold train of most of the other watches above, but don't let that stop you. As with almost all E.Howard watches it is very well made and the nickel plates have a variety of nice damasceen patterns. It was made in three grades (dog, horse and deer) but this just reflects the original adjustments and the finish is comparable on all. There were only 1400 made and these are unfortunately not generally available complete and in original cases for under 4 figures. Re-cased examples, often missing the whiplash regulator spring turn up for less but are not a good investment unless you can get them cheap.

10. ?? I think that I will let you pick this one. Here is a list of others from which I really could not choose just one to fill this last slot.
a. Rockford 300 or 305 - scarce and nicely finished, but the two extra cap jewels are superfluous
b. South Bend 431 - a well-made high-quality watch but lacks the fine cosmetic touches, such as a gold train
c. Hamilton grade 900 - gorgeously finished watch, equal to the 23-jewel model, and one of my favorites, but how many Hamiltons can I list?
d. Illinois grade 409 - a top quality movement with gold train and diamond cap (not found on other grades) - how many Illinois can I include?
e. Hampden John Hancock - several models - 21 ruby jewels in gold settings, but a brass train
f. Waltham Maximus-A - an elegantly simple, thin, high-grade movement with gold train and diamond cap jewels
g. Howard 21 or 23 jewel - both are extremely nice movements. The earlier ones are finished a little nicer. Squeeze one of these into the last slot if you can bear to disqualify one of the others.

1) Waltham American Watch Co. bridge model

3/4-plate Riverside Maximus

Elgin grade 194

Hamilton grade 400 (photo cropped from a beauty by Larry S.]

Hamilton Masterpiece

Illini 23-jewel (not mine - wish it were)

Illinois grade 299