How scarce is this Waltham dial?

February 09, 2006, 18:47

James Greg Wooldridge

How scarce is this Waltham dial?

I just purchased this watch. The dial is perfect. Grimy, but perfect. It is a Monty wind-indicator. I haven't seen too many of these. In fact, I am having a difficult time finding much info at all. It is attached to a 23J 16s Vanguard. Any help appreciated.
Thanks!

February 09, 2006, 20:04

Frank Kusumoto

No info except that I've fixed a 21j Crescent St. with the exact same dial. Another question: Where is the wind indicator supposed to be pointing when the watch is completely wound, and then again where does it point when the watch is completely wound down.

Frank "407" Kusumoto

February 09, 2006, 20:44

Lindell V. Riddle

I have a few Waltham "Indicators" or "Up and Down" watches in my collection, but not with that specific dial. Assuming Jim's dial to be porcelain-enamel I'd think it would be very desirable.

On the up / down pointer position, I tend to set my pointers so that when all the way down the pointer is at the "D'N" position, then fully wound it usually goes a little past the "UP" position. Not unlike an automotive fuel guage showing above the "Full" when the tank is completely filled.

Of course how you set the pointer comes down to your own personal choice.

By the way, I think these watches are undervalued and represent a bargain in top condition.

23-Jewel 6-Position Vanguard in Rose GF Case...

February 09, 2006, 22:33

Denny Iwen

My pick would be pointing at the 0 at the up position when fully wound.
James, nice dial, I think it is very rare to find a dial in this condition on waltham indicators any more.
Denny

February 09, 2006, 23:33

Cort Moore

"Assuming Jim's dial to be porcelain-enamel I'd think it would be very desirable".

I agree with Lindell 100%. Some details I see make me doubt this dial. For instance, the up/down hand seems poorly framed by lines on the dial. It also appears a bit too flat in the photo to be double sunk. This is just my observation of course. A pic of the back of the dial would solve the matter quickly.
-Cort

February 10, 2006, 01:04

Ethan Lipsig

I have Waltham Vanguard with a very similar dial, except that it also says "Vanguard 23 Jewels" and has a slightly different wind indicator dial. The wind indicator dial is sunk just like the seconds dial is sunk, but the dial has a black circle inside the hours chapter to imitate the usual double sunk dial. I am attaching a poor picture.

February 10, 2006, 01:05

Ethan Lipsig

I should add that, since taking the picture, I had had the up/down indicator adjusted so that it is right on the zero when the watch is fully wound.

February 10, 2006, 08:48

James Greg Wooldridge

Thanks for the comments, everyone. The dial is most definately enamel and has no outwardly signs of an authenticity issue. I should have time to take it off and photograph the back tonight.

February 10, 2006, 11:43

Lindell V. Riddle

Upon reflection... It probably makes far more sense that if you were actually using the watch the indicator pointer be set at "0" when fully wound. Then you'd have a clear indication of how much time you have left.

That way the approximately thirty-hour mainspring would be down to the "24" each day when it's time to wind it. My watches are rarely wound so I had not really thought out the original intent before now.

Thanks to Denny Iwen for pointing out what really should have been obvious!

February 10, 2006, 12:21

Mark Cross

It's not that obvious, Lindell, as we're used to seeing our current counters in a count down set up...so it's easy to confuse direction. I know unless I think about it for a minute, I'd think if it's near zero, the watch was almost wound down (zero power left in the spring), where in the description above, you're saying it's fully wound at zero, and it's showing how many hours it's run as it progresses.

Regards! Mark

February 10, 2006, 13:29

Lindell V. Riddle

Thanks Mark,

On these watches having it showing zero when fully wound is most logical as that would indicate to the user how many hours since the last wind. That means when it counts down to 12 you're about half way. Then when it is at the 24 you have about 4-6 hours to go as most of the Walthams will run for thirty hours or so if I recall correctly. That 24 area is of course when the watch is due for its daily winding.

My error in not thinking out the Waltham scale fully before is because my indicator watches when run down (as they usually are) look nicer to my eye with the pointer at exactly the "down" position. But it is interesting to also consider the "power reserve" scale on a wristwatch that shows how much time is left on the wind.

It becomes one of those... "Is the glass half empty of half full" ...kind of things.

Taking it even further, Elgin Up and Downs show "40" at the "D'N" position and the Rockford Indicators are to my way of thinking the best designed scale of all. As you'll see below, the scale on this 16-size Grade 655 Rockford Indicator strongly suggests "WIND" at the 24 area but "DOWN" is at 36 hours. I believe they run about 40 hours. There was no dial design consistancy among the different makers.

The "Rockford Indicator" scale expresses it better...