I recently bought a non-running, essentially parts watch, Elgin. I bought it primarily for the case which turned out to be somewhat disappointing. Anyhow, the reason for the post is that this watch is clearly marked 21 Jewels on the movement. I saw someone had scratched out the 21 and written 0 under it. Don't you just love it when folks mark up movements? Upon disassembly it is clearly 11 jewels, and the Elgin database calls it 11 jewels as well. Now for the question. Was this common in 1890 to mark a watch as 21 jewels and have it be an actual 11 jewel movement?
Sn 3,579,190 shows it to be a Grade 10, class 5, Model 2-4, 11 jewel made in about 1890. It actually runs now which is amazing in and of itself.
Posts: 3112 | Location: Klamath Falls, Oregon in the USA | Registered: October 13, 2007
There were very few 21-Jewel movements in 1890, at that time 11-Jewels was the norm, so it is likely someone at some point deceptively put "21-Jewels" on this lesser movement for short-term financial gain. In fact, in 1890 it was not common to have jewel count on watches, the earliest Hamilton Railroad Watches in 1894 were not marked as to jewel count. Those markings became common in the first half-decade of the Twentieth Century.
It is a shame this otherwise very good watch was defaced, some would say it was ruined.
Debbie
Posts: 5386 | Location: Northern Ohio in the U.S.A. | Registered: December 04, 2002
3579190 is a Grade 10, Eleven jewel Hunter Movement. 1 of 273,000 made from 1878 to 1896 in 81 separate runs. It is hard to decide which one was dumber, the one who marked 21 Jewels, or the Ice Pick Graffitti artist who scratched in "No".
Posts: 6492 | Location: Southern California in the USA | Registered: July 19, 2007
I know that in the 1898 Sears and Roebuck catalog, they offered these so called '21j' marked watches as 'traders specials' for traveling salesmen to use for trading stock should they need to sweeten a deal. It was a regular stock item at Sears prior to 1900.
Regards! Mark
Posts: 3837 | Location: Estill Springs, Tennessee, USA | Registered: December 02, 2002
Interesting Mark I never knew that I have seen several watches marked like this and wondered if there were that many owners/watchmakers stamping them for gain, but what you say makes sence.
As explained above in this topic by both Debbie and David that old Elgin of Mike's was sadly altered at some point of sale in order to deceive an unsuspecting buyer. There are sellers around who have small "14K" dies for sale and those are being used to re-mark jewelry in much the same way today, deceptive markings will always be with us.
But the kind of watch Mark refers to are the common "Swiss Fakes" which as he pointed out were even sold in Sears Catalogs a hundred years ago. They were not Elgins or any watch of quality, examine the ad below and you will see those were 7-Jewel movements fraudulently marked to pose as 23-Jewel movements. Also, read this topic "Inspection of a Swiss Fake "Ball" in 1909" for more eye-opening information about falsely marked watch movements.
Here is a clipping from the 1908 Sears Catalog:
Posts: 504 | Location: Pennsylvania in the USA | Registered: April 02, 2005
