Is the 940 grade more scarce than the 992's.I see many 992's on ebay,but not many 940's.I also notice some are more detailed on the back as to adjustment etc.Thanks for any help you Hamilton people can give.Regards,Norm

It depends on what you consider "scarce", I think the 992 was produced in numbers a bit over 500,000 if you include only the lever models and not the E model movement, the 940 in the book I have shows a bit over 200,000 made so yes they made less 940's than 992's but at a total production of over 200,000 they are not really that scarce. Off the top of my head I think there are about 5 major variations of the 940. I have the 5th version (fully signed) and they are nice watches and have very nice DMK effect. I have some Hamiltons in my collection 2-990's, 1-992,1-993,1-992B and 1-940 along with 2-974's. Of that group the 990's and the 940 have much more DNK effect. If I had to make a choice I think the 990 is probably one I would choose if forced to make a choice of one grade of movement, very nice watches and sometimes very overlooked.

I think that the only reason that there aren't as many 940's is because the railroads phased out 18s watches by the 1920's. Along with the 992, they were one of the railmans' most popular work horse watch, and there are a lot of them out there. It always cracks me up when I see listings on ebay for a 992 or 940, and they throw in words like "rare", "scarce", etc... They are not, they are very common, mainly because they were two of the best. Regards, Brad

Here are some production totals from Ehrhardt's Hamilton book.

940 Family of watches (all lever set):

940 (OF, 21J) 205,815

941 (HC, 21J) 25,411
942 (OF, 21J) 5,418
943 (HC, 21J) 2,399
944 (OF, 19J) 6,600

992 Family of watches:

990L (OF, 21J) 16,489
991L (HC, 21J) 2,521

992L (OF, 21J) 104,067 1st Model
992P (OF, 21J) 2,500 1st Model
992L (OF, 21J) 438,217 2nd Model
992P (OF, 21J) 3,601 2nd Model
992E (OF, 21J) 60,997 3rd Model

And that is not including the 992B, the largest number manufactured of all the 992 family, somewhere around 477,883+/- and all in 14+ years....

In that same time frame, 1940 to 1954, Elgin made approx. 239,000 BWR's to compete with the 992B....

But to answer your original question Norman:
_____________________________________________
Is the 940 grade more scarce than the 992's?
_____________________________________________

The answer is Yes....


Regards,

Jerry

Jerry just so I am clear are you saying that Hamilton produced all 470K of 992B's from 1940-1954 and did not make another 992B from 1954 to the 1969-70 time frame? The figure for Elgin is correct if you include the 21j BWR's made in 1940 then include the 571 which there were a tad over 171K made from 46-54 but after much after 1954 Elgin was pretty much out of the RR watch business, they still made some watches up until the final end but I think the 571 was the last that could be considered RR approved. Hamilton continued selling watches up to the 1969-70 range nearly 15 years after the 571 was documented as being produced. So saying that the 992B outsold the 571 by such a large margin I would wonder about because if the last 992B was produced in 1954 then where did the rest of these 992B's come from. So for the first time frame you are talking about 1940 to 1954 it is probably accurate that the BWR's and the 992B's were sold in comparable numbers, I would think the remaining 992B's were sold in final time frame 1954-1970 since Hamilton would have been the only dog in the RR watch fight since Waltham and Elgin no longer made RR watches in the 54-70 time frame. The numbers for just the 571 would have been greater that 20K/yr (171K/8yrs). If Hamilton did make all of the 992B's then I would think saying they sold more than Elgin in the same timeframe might be a bit mis-leading since from 1954-1969-70 the 992B's had to come from somewhere. From the 1993 price book Roy E posted that the 992B produced ~218K 992B's from 1940-48 or about 27K/yr. In the same span 40-48, Elgin was still making some 478's (~40K in the 1940-43 time frame). The 590 served as the buffer between the end of the 478 production and the beginning of the 571 but only 8K 590's were made. I think for the 992B rather than production numbers in the same time frame 40-54 you would have to look at sales figures since Hamilton probably produced the watches and warehoused them and sold them in the 1955-70 time frame. There may be been some 571's floating around but I tend to think by the late 50's they were not warehoused by Elgin anymore.

Jerry,

Actually the 992B total is somewhat higher. Just going by the "straight" serial numbers known (C001 to C525258) the total through 1969 is at least 525,258 produced.

Then you have to add the post-production watches assembled in 1970 out of leftover 4992B (4C-prefix) and 950B (S-prefix) parts. The exact number of those will probably never be known, but I reckon it's at least a few hundred more.

For more details see the 992B Movement Number Topic in our Hamilton Research Forum.

Hey Claude....What I am saying is this; According to Gelson list here on 185, Hamilton listed 477,883 serial number allotments for the 992B from 1940 thru 1954, now whether they were all produced I have no way of knowing, maybe someone does but not I....Now these numbers do not include the '4C' or 'S' prefix movements, just the 'C' prefix....

I used BWR as a comparison because that was the only RR watch, Grade 571, Elgin was making after 1950 so I just went back to the BWR's made in 1940 and came forward with the numbers....all the 571's were BWR's except the first 5 runs....

As far as Elgin and Hamilton competing with each other for the RR market I don't think there was much competition especially when one looks at these numbers.

The 571 BWR was in the $85-$90.00 range in the 50's but I don't know what the price range was for the 992B's at a comparable time....

As far as the warehousing factor goes, who really knows for sure, all I will say is the Elgin made the last 571 sometime in 1954 and they were all being cased and timed at the Elgin factory so if any were sold 1955 to 70 time frame they were some that a jeweler may have had a little stock stashed away....

Just my opinion is all....

Regards,

Jerry

Ed, the official numbers recorded up to 1954 is on the Gelson list and I used that list because it would coincide with Elgin's production of 571 RR watches....

If the truth be known, Hamilton produced many many thousands more RR watches than Elgin did....

Thanks for the clarification though....

Regards,

Jerry

Jerry I guess maybe I am looking at the wrong logic, if I look at the 992 the numbers produced would be a real generous estimate of 600K spanning from 1903-1940 (tossing in the E model and a few others) which would be a production of 600K/37yrs or a rough average of 16.2K 992's over 37 yrs yet from 1940-1954 Hamilton sold/produced 477K in 14 years to ave about 34K per year which would be double their production of RR watches at a time when railroad companies were fading in numbers and by this time their were many good 16s 21j adj5p watches out there that could be purchased used. The 16.2K compares with the production of the 571 (20K/yr). I find it quite interesting that Hamilton for the most part double it's yearly rate sold in a dying market and basically sold about the same number of watches in about half the time. Maybe one could make a case that people had more money to spend for a watch after the war but the popularity of the pocket watch had started to drop in the late 20's and early 30's and most men were buying wrist watches unless they had to have a RR watch. At a time when Elgin and Waltham were struggling, Hamilton was doubling it's yearly sales in a time when railroads were dying off, I have always found that a bit hard to understand. One might think that the sales numbers would have been greater in the 1900-1940 range since that would have been more the hey-day of the railroads. After 1940 over the road trucking would have had a major impact on railroads in regards to freight hauling, passenger service was dropping already also because of traveling by car during the same period. In reality I would think that selling 16.2K 992B's per year would have been a big sales success in the 1940-54 time frame, meaning that I would have expected Hamilton to produce/sale about 227K 992B's which would be in the same ballpark as the 478/590/571 BWR figure. Again I am just looking at the sales average of the 992 over 37 years in a good market (little competition from wristwatches) over a larger number of railroads and probably number of railroad workers. In reality if you take the 16.2K and multipy it by 27yrs (40-67) you end up with about 437K and I would have expected Hamilton to sell more watches in the 54-69 range since the competition from Waltham and Elgin were still competing in the RR watch market, after 54 both were out of the market. So in dying market, and losing two of your comeptitor and your only competition being the RR approved wristwatches Hamilton might have maintained the average that it did in 1903-40.

________________________________________________________
Jerry I guess maybe I am looking at the wrong logic
________________________________________________________



________________________________________________________
Just my opinion is all....
________________________________________________________

Regards,

Jerry

Jerry the main point I am making is that people toss out the Gelson list numbers but most of the time do not ponder the impact of those numberS. In the case of the 992 numbers of 600K over 37 years the last 20 years of that range the figures were not impacted by the 990(gone) or the 18s watches (Ball championed killing the 18s off) and the 940 appears to have sold a bit less than 210K over 28yrs 1900-1928 (7.5K). So for Hamiliton from 1920-1940 the 992 was the Big Dog RR watch sold by them and even in the range 1903-1920 it still was their Big Dog RR watch. But in the end over a total of 37 years the 992 averaged about 16.2K sales per year. Just because someone set down and allocated a bunch of serial number allocations doesn't mean that those watches were actually produced in that time frame, If I take the Gelson numbers to heart then I would have expected when the 992B was released that Hamilton would have had to increase the size of its workforce since with the release of the 992B and by the Gelson numbers Hamilton would produce the same number of 992B in half the time that it took to make the 992 in regards to total numbers. I would expect Hamilton to pick up market share (sales) in the 1920-1940 range because Hampden was going or gone, Illinois, going or gone, Rockford, going or gone, South Bend, going or gone but some of that market share would have been picked up by Elgin and Waltham also. But if I look at Hampden, SB and other they would have been gone over 10yrs in that 37 year range and yet as an average Hamiton did not break the 20K/watch per year level and that sales market was shrinking. I guess if someone really wanted to break down the sales they could find the 992 sales/produced from 1903-1919, 1920-1929, 1930-1939 and that would give you a good indication of the original market share sales average per decade with the first range being a bit longer than a decade. I am sure that Hamilton and others made a lot of watches for the war effort but those hackset movements I did not count. Of the lever sets here is the breakdown based on the Roy E serial number list.

992 1st model - 1903-14 9.5K/yr
992 2nd model - 1914-31 25.7K/yr
992E 3rd model - 1930-40 6K/yr

I don't have the data to break the 2nd model down by decades but that is how you end up with about 16.2K over 37 years. To sell about 50% more watches per year over Hamilton best sales year 1914-31 in a market that was dramatically smaller. Flatly Elgin sold more watches that Hamilton if you consider 16 size in all jewel counts on a yearly basis but by the 1940-54 time frame Elgin was down to the grades 571, 572, 573, 574, 575 and some 4XX/5XX grades looking at post war 1946 and later in the 57X series had a total production of ~362K over the 8 year range 46-54 or about 45.2K/yr that looks sad since Hamilton was selling 25.7K/yr with one watch in the 1914-31 time frame. Elgin's sales numbers might be a bit better in the 40-46 range but it only goes to show that the pocket watch market was going away quickly but if I look at the Gelson numbers Hamilton was 50% better than its best ever sales figure on a yearly basis in a market that was clearly vanishing rapidly.

Thanks everyone for your information.This is what is so great about this site.Ask a simple question and you get answers you can't find anywhere else.Awesome.Thanks.Norm