First, I apologize if this question is a basic knowledge question for those who work on their watches on a regular basis. I don't, and there's a LOT I don't know.

I recently found out that a keywind watch I traded for has a replacement balance that does not have a matching serial number to the watch movement. (No, it's not the one I got from Chris Abell that was discussed on these very pages. That Model 58 keeps great time and has all its original parts. )

Sometime in the past the balance in my OTHER KW model 58 was swapped out with the original balance.

The watch runs in all positions, but runs fast.

I know this affects collector value....but in the position of just being used as a 'carry' watch, can a watch be made to keep decent time with a replacement balance?

Is it worth the effort?

It does not take away the pleasure of ownership, but it does keep me from wanting to carry it when it gains time like it does.

Just wondering....

Regards! Mark

Mark from everything I have read or pictures I have seen was in regards to the balance the serial number was more for tracking purposes for final assembly. There were stages where someone was poising the balance, adding and vibrating the hairspring etc.

I am sure that Roger or Dave can add much deeper insight but I would think if the balance is properly poised, hairspring properly mounted and adjusted and meantime screws not messed with and all other parts properly installed and adjusted that even a correct (proper) swapped/replacement balance should be fine.

There are probably more than a few watches out there that have had the balance swapped over the years that most are not aware of in their collections.

If I had an Elgin grade 571 and somehow the balance was damaged and a proper replacement balance was properly installed, it would not decrease the value in my eyes, no more than if the original balance staff had been replaced.

Thanks Claude!

Regard! Mark

Claude is correct Mark...The process of matching the balance to the hairspring is called 'vibrating the hairspring' and it can get a bit involved. Depending on how fast your watch is, it may be a matter of adjusting timing screws out to slow it down or adding timing washers under the balance screws. I just completed one that had the correct balance wheel and no evidence of the screws being altered or disturbed, but after service it was over 7 minutes a day fast. I weighed an opposite pair of screws and then installed heavier screws. That made it just the opposite at around 7 minutes a day slow. I then took two screws and put them on the lathe and removed enough material to split the difference. The screws have to be precisely matched or poise will be thrown off. End result of the one I did was RR timekeeping in 5 of the 6 positions and the 6th position (pendant down) was 12 seconds a day fast.

Wow! That's great info/news. Makes me now think my other model 58 isn't a lost cause. I appreciate the input!

Regard! Mark

It might also be a problem with the wrong strength mainspring..I replaced a mainspring in and Elgin a week or so ago and put a 4 1/2 strength spring in it and the watch ran slow...I took the spring out and put a stronger 3 1/2 strength (the strength the watch called for)spring in it and it ran fine..

Mine runs fast, so are you suggesting too strong of a main spring could be a consideration? I hope that's not the case, as it's an 1874 watch.

Regards! Mark

I wouldn't give up on it as Roger and Gary mentioned there might be some other gremlins involved so there may be hope that it will end up bing a good timekeeper.

Thanks, Claude. Will do. Like said, it runs fine in all positions. It just gains a couple minutes a day, and I've moved the regulator over as far to 'S' as possible, so it's not a HUGE gain, but enough to make it not be one I want to pocket before I walk out the door to work, if you follow my meaning? Regards! Mark

Mark, please quantify "fast" because that can affect what level of mechanical fussing may be needed to bring it in time.

If it is less than 10 minutes a day adding balance washers could do the trick. If over 10 minutes some closer inspection and manipulation of the wheel, the arms of the wheel and the hairspring length could be in order. This would also include re-poising the wheel. All do-able but necessary to bring it back to time.

As I am out of action, you might ask Chris about this.

David, last time I checked it, it was gaining around 2-3 minutes a day in pendent up and dial up position and regulator whip over to the maximum setting of slow.

I wound it up this morning and will see where things stand tonight after 12 hours of running in pendent up position.

I bet if I left it on the porch with our current 16 degree F temps it would slow down.

I'll check again with Chris. He's been pretty well slammed with work lately. Thanks.

Regards! Mark

Mark,

A quick check is to put the hair spring under magnification and see if there is anything causing any two coils anywhere in the run to "sister" up.

Sometimes it is old oil, cat hair, piece of lint... anything that can cause any two coils to act as one, making the effective length of the spring shorter, which translates to faster.

R/Paul

Very good. Thanks Paul!

Regards! Mark

And before you start doing any work, don't forget to demagnetize the watch, then check timing again. That is actually the first thing you should do so you aren't chasing a magnetized movement problem. It's kind of automatic with me, so I forgot to mention it in my first reply to you.

Understood. Regards! Mark

Demagnetize and then get the eye loupe out and look for lint or cat hair or oil on the hairspring.

Will do. Should the watch be running or not when demagetizing? I have read through all the posts in a search, and can't find anything regarding it being one way or the other. Does it matter?

Sorry for all the basic questions here.

Regards !Mark

Doesn't matter whether running or not when you demagnetize.

10-4!

Dave,
I was thinking you were talking about a larger gain in time than 2 or three minutes a day...The Elgin I was talking about was losing about 25 minutes a day and was running the same in all positions..Dave was right that 2 or 3 minutes can be corrected with a couple balance washers...

The whole cat hair thing is an inside joke between Dave Abbe and I. I drove a watch all the way out to him one day because it was down to about 1 beat per second and I could not figure it out.

He opened the back, leaned over for his tweezers, grabbed hold of something and started gently tugging. 2 inches later, he held a long, thin strand of grey hair up to the light and asked me, "how old's your ol' lady?"

Not long after that, I learned how to COA my own watches.

Mark, not a bad idea to set your regulator back to the center position before you time it.

Regards,
Larry

LOL! No cats at my house, or dogs either for that matter.

I did that this morning when I wound it up before leaving for work, Larry. Got home tonight, and it's LOST 5 minutes. So, yep, it has some issues, I'm afraid.

I demagetized it, moved the regulator up, and we'll see what we see tomorrow morning. I'm not feeling it will do much better, as I've always been told from dead center of the regulator you can fine tune plus/minus 30 seconds. I don't think I'm going to pick up 5 minutes in regulator adjustment.

My thanks to everyone who has taken the time to give me some info and tips today. I really appreciate it.

Regards! Mark

Bisbee, my "boneless cat agrees! One can "plop" his 24 pound feline self anywhere without disturbing his sleep one iota!

The watch may not have a really big problem, as a replacement wheel, temperature could be the issue. These early KW watches liked to stay the same temperature to keep decent time anyway.

Agreed, David, but the 1869 model 58 hanging right next to it has kept almost perfect time in the same temperatures.

I'm afraid this one has more issues than I expected. It's lost about a minute since I last checked in, so it may go back in the drawer for a while until I can get it on a bench somewhere.

Thanks again, everyone.

Regards! Mark

Panda is going on 21 years old. Loves his pellet stove. Don't give up on the watch. Sometimes putting it aside and coming back to it will shed new light.

Yeah, it's going back in the drawer. It was over 15 miutes slow ths morning, but if anything else it will be a fine parts watch should the 1869 version ever need parts.....less a replacement balance.


Regards! Mark

Nothing to contribute other than good luck with your watch Mark.

Plus a picture of my cat, and what a fur factory he is. "Spud" is 14 and was diagnosed with diabetes so he gets two shots a day but is close to developing insulin resistance.

Thanks, Lorne.

Regard! Mark